Division 1 and 2 together?

[Tony Flores]

They should go back to the old way. DII and III on early in the week (finals on Wednesday). Let a set number of corps move into QF of D1. I liked that and it usually resulted in some nice surprises. Corps that do not want to do a national tour go the DII route, earn their way into D1 QF and can go as far as their show will let them, even finals (see Magic).

That is what we did. in '94 we did Div II/III finals and the next day we performed in Div I Quarters and placed 21...same thing in 96 and placed 22nd

[shawn craig]

We lost 2 or so div II corps this year also. If we lose many more they'll have a hard time justifying keeping that div. :(

Those corps will have to choose to either move into div I or go with what is currently div III which will then become the new div II.

[tbobaz]

The system has been flawed for quite sometime.

It would be extremely beneficial for it to be refined.

The system where everyone competed equally was the fairest system.

In regards to touring, a system can be developed and requirements built.

Division 1,2,3 needs to be eliminated.

DCI ( and it's Board) needs to wake up and look at what they have done.

[ekrebs102]

Plus, we wouldn't have to fish through so many forums to find out about all of the junior corps. Or have posts moved. (Just having a little fun with the mods on that.)

Something needs to change to help this situation. I like the idea of separating the corps by touring boundaries. Plus, I would like to see every corps have a chance to make finals, like it used to be. Not that many probably would, but it has happened.

[Bob984]

I did like when the top Div II corps were advanced to quarterfinals.........good exposure for those corps, and there were some "upsets" had.....I see no harm in it.....

Also, although I have enjoyed the Marine Corps D+B Corps exhibitions at the start of finals, I did like when the div II/III champs were allowed to perform.......................I think the hype to be able to perform in front of a large crowd is a good thing for those kids.......even if they were to do exhibitions at semis, that may be cool.......I was not in favor when they moved II/III to different venues and they are totally separate..........all of the above place at these the top groups in front of a big audience.....

GB

[DAvery]

When did the member limit change to 135 for DII? What was the rationale? What is the difference between DI and DII? It can't be tours, the Spartans and Jersey Surf and traveling more than The Academy and Mandarins. I don't know what their budgets are, but should that determine division anyway? Is the only difference how DCI classifies each corps or how the corps classifies itself? Do we really have something that is more acurately described as DIa and DIb? Kinda like division I college football. Maybe they should be all grouped together.

[Bob984]

When did the member limit change to 135 for DII? What was the rationale? What is the difference between DI and DII? It can't be tours, the Spartans and Jersey Surf and traveling more than The Academy and Mandarins. I don't know what their budgets are, but should that determine division anyway? Is the only difference how DCI classifies each corps or how the corps classifies itself? Do we really have something that is more acurately described as DIa and DIb? Kinda like division I college football. Maybe they should be all grouped together.

For a good while now, Div II can have a full size corps. Division II is for corps that wish to compete at that level, with corps of that experience level. It is not based on travel, but they still overall have fewer shows than most division I corps...that said, the div II/III corps are traveling more than they did. You are totally right that calling a corps Division II has zippo to do with the size of the corps....div. III still does. I don't think they should necessarily be grouped together with division I during the regular season......there are a decent number of division I shows that also have div II/III competitors....all that having them all compete against each other would mean, for the most part, is lower scores for these developing corps.....but I would be fine with the top div II/III qualifying to appear/compete at Open quarterfinals....

GB

[Blueemrld8]

When did the member limit change to 135 for DII? What was the rationale? What is the difference between DI and DII? It can't be tours, the Spartans and Jersey Surf and traveling more than The Academy and Mandarins. I don't know what their budgets are, but should that determine division anyway? Is the only difference how DCI classifies each corps or how the corps classifies itself? Do we really have something that is more acurately described as DIa and DIb? Kinda like division I college football. Maybe they should be all grouped together.

college vs jr. college hu? ( i can say that cuz i went to both :D)

anyway.......

It kinda seems to me that the only thing seperating these two divisions is the financial. (speaking in the broadest sense) Is that right? If it is right then, while i like the idea of DI and DII merging, i am wondering if it is plausible to ask them to front the cash needed to really compete against the already espablished DI corps.

Yeah -- instead of calling the Div I, Div II, Div III, created three touring models -- Full national tour, limited tour, local/regional tour.

National Tour is like what most corps do now. Best case scenario for recruiting, exposure, competition, etc. Would perform in shows coast to coast as desired and compete in all Regioinal championships and Finals

Limited Tour would span maybe two regions. Most shows within a two days drive. Easier on budget although trade-off is less exposure nationwide. Might not compete against all other Limited corps based on region. Would compete in two Regional Championships (your own Region and next closest Region). And Finals.

Local/Regional Tour would compete only within region. All shows within 1 day drive. Would likely end up being mostly local members (although not necessary). Would only compete in 1 Regional. And Finals if desired/budgeted.

All corps would otherwise follow same rules/scoresheets. Seeding for Regionals/Finals and all that would have to be worked out, but advantage would be given to National corps 1st, then Limited, then Local.

This idea has wonderful potential. The only problem is that when i read about the "Local Tour," i get a sinking feeling in my gut :( How would they grow? They would always be contained.

As others in this thread, i think getting rid of the number of members in DII and DIII and lumping them together would be the best course of action. That way DIII isn't left flapping in the wind while D2 is assimilated into D1.

Does that make any sense?

[louderisbetter]

I think that judging/scoring should be universal, not division-specific... as everyone was saying, it was always interesting to see where the top div II corps stacked up against the div I lineup, and the current system pretty much implies that there is some sort of fundamental difference between the two. The same goes for II vs. III... I want to see scores that reflect the quality, rather than the number of members, touring schedules, etc.

While those things certainly have an effect on it (both in experience, attracting talent, and general effect), rather than making it a "fair" way to judge different groups, it has only managed to build up a stigma against the corps in II/III.

I like the ideas (from previous posts) about corps choosing a regional/local/national touring model, particularly because it gives each corps the flexibility to decide what's best for their members/finances. Having more of a true "regional championship" system (in addition to the national level) would certainly encourage participation from more local groups, since the current regionals are more focused at showcasing the div Is.

[silvertrombone]

I know you'll all hate me for saying this, but this topic crosses over into some of the assumptions and arguments I've been making in the "Tell me where to march" threads.

I completely think that eliminating the D1/2/3 designations is alright, but how does a current D3 compete with current D2's much less the Blue Devils?

I would say that you have to increase the size of these corps, and we know that there are enough people auditioning to do so, albeit for the BIG 5. Again, requiring participation in a DC--ANY DC!--for a year in order to be eligible to audition for former champions (Madison exempted) fills all of the corps. Every single corps presently in D1/2/3 has 135--heck, probably even 150!--members, bang! Not the point, I realize, but it would be the result.

More corps with more competent, talented members=greater demand for staffers of quality. And that raises ALL of the corps in performance capability.

Tour however you want to. Regional, national, etc. Rules, yes. But choose what is best for your corps and do it. Tour model is not an issue IMO.

OK, some D2/3 corps are perfectly happy as D2/3 corps and have no inclination to bump up. But if all corps had same membership numbers (even if they didn't CHOOSE to fill all spots--not like you 'have' to tour 150 just cuz' you can) and all received $$$ for performance, don't you see the activity getting stronger instead of dying?

Look at Bluecoats, Academy, and Crown this year. Look at where people seem to think Crossmen and Blue Stars are headed. Now just to really throw things into a tizzy, add 15 corps to that mix that are presently D2/3 and give it 5 years!

Performance levels are already insanely high--they would only go up. And you'd be adding more corps because kids would HAVE to march 'elsewhere' first. If you have 7 corps this year vying for the 10-12 spots, how long before you have 20 vying for 8-12 spots, then (FINALLY!) parity, defined as 6 corps (without any going inactive) leapfrogging into finals one year?

Now THAT'S exciting to me! This "BD wins again" stuff is predictable.

Who would the crowd go nuts for the most if they won in Pasadena?

Cadets?

BD?

Cavies?

Or Bluecoats???

I don't know, California probably wants a hometown champion for "their" hometown finals, but the activity wants Blooo.

Fast-forward 5 years: The top 5 consists of...

Bluecoats

Blue Devils

Cadets

Carolina Crown

Crossmen

Now doesn't THAT look interesting?

Nothing changes if nothing changes. And simply lumping D2/3 in with D1 will only hasten their demise completely.