OK...Prove It

[DCIjazzsoul]

I'm curious Tom, why are you so hell bent on the destruction of Div. II/III?

[crashhelmi36]

Figures from 2005:

Total attendance in Major League Baseball = 74,915,268

Total attendance in Atlantic League Baseball (an independent league, so we don't get into the affiliates argument) = 2,032,626

Is it time to start the "Ok... Prove it, Atlantic League Baseball is not dead" thread?

Divison II/III is around for a lot of reasons. Very few of them have anything to do with attendance figures.

Edited September 16, 2007 by crashhelmi36

[MrPolite13]

Guys lay off Tom a bit. Just a guy who takes the numbers and at first glance sees a problem. Div 2/3 movers and shakers know it is in a crisis, but are still working hard to keep it alive. Im marched or taught Div 2/3 my whole career. 12yrs later I see a lot of corps continuing the growth process while others have gone by the way side. A lot has changed in 10 yrs. So he is speaking from what he knows/ remembers. Look at the list of D 2/3 finalist from 10yrs ago and see how many are still active. Now do the same for Div 1.

When I marched (and even now) I loved the scores, politics and all that Jazz. But knew the only thing I had control of was giving the crowd all I had for 10min. Leaving everything on the field. It feels great to get a standing ovation. To have thousands screaming for you. It gives you validation in some respect. To know that people love and are touched by what you do. Thats why so many people live for the crowd response. The bigger the better. Div1's get that all year long. So when you compete all season long to small crowds you get hyped up at the possibility of performing in front of a mass number of people at championships. At least in finals. Esp. coming into the activity brand new and only knowing what you see on espn (ie. the crowds, stadium lights, energy, etc.) I was just lucky enough to have marched when all this was still going on for Div 2/3 (10yrs ago). D 2/3 pay the same "dues" that the D1's do. Long days, hours in the sun, thousands of dollars, etc.

Now here is my personal question. Why do we find so many times that great Div 2/3 strive, spend and fight to be in Div 1?

Div2/3 Corps pop up every year looking to become a part of the continued Tradition, Sport, Art, Passion that is Drum Corps. Lets support and strengthen our future.

DIv 2/3- The life seed of Drum Corps

[Tom Brace]

Guys lay off Tom a bit. Just a guy who takes the numbers and at first glance sees a problem. Div 2/3 movers and shakers know it is in a crisis, but are still working hard to keep it alive. Im marched or taught Div 2/3 my whole career. 12yrs later I see a lot of corps continuing the growth process while others have gone by the way side. A lot has changed in 10 yrs. So he is speaking from what he knows/ remembers. Look at the list of D 2/3 finalist from 10yrs ago and see how many are still active. Now do the same for Div 1.

When I marched (and even now) I loved the scores, politics and all that Jazz. But knew the only thing I had control of was giving the crowd all I had for 10min. Leaving everything on the field. It feels great to get a standing ovation. To have thousands screaming for you. It gives you validation in some respect. To know that people love and are touched by what you do. Thats why so many people live for the crowd response. The bigger the better. Div1's get that all year long. So when you compete all season long to small crowds you get hyped up at the possibility of performing in front of a mass number of people at championships. At least in finals. Esp. coming into the activity brand new and only knowing what you see on espn (ie. the crowds, stadium lights, energy, etc.) I was just lucky enough to have marched when all this was still going on for Div 2/3 (10yrs ago). D 2/3 pay the same "dues" that the D1's do. Long days, hours in the sun, thousands of dollars, etc.

Now here is my personal question. Why do we find so many times that great Div 2/3 strive, spend and fight to be in Div 1?

Div2/3 Corps pop up every year looking to become a part of the continued Tradition, Sport, Art, Passion that is Drum Corps. Lets support and strengthen our future.

DIv 2/3- The life seed of Drum Corps

Well said. No one wishes ill for any drum corps. Please folks....think before you type. But...the II/III directors are scrambling to get to Div. I like rats leaving a sinking ship. If Spartans and Surf go up next year and most of the Cali corps don't come to Indy...where does that leave you?

I get it...the kids work hard.

I get it...they love to perform.

What I don't get is why II/III isn't reaching out to DCA to form a Jr. Div. as an alternate to DCI? There can't be less money in this move than sticking with DCI. In my opinion, DCI is not the only game in town. Plus, when you look at the beginnings of DCI, it took a group of crazy guysto get together and figure out a new direction for the drum corps activity. One would think it could happen again.

And it's been an interesting week of reading for me on DCP. I can remember the day when people complained that DCI didn't act enough like a business with their decisions. Now, when they get their act together business and marketing wise and begin making good decisions...by the way...if they are in the black this year (and I think they will be) it will be the first time in DCIs history that they have been in the black for 3 consecutive years...now people complain that they're acting too much like a business. I just think that's funny.

So I push some buttons...cause some people to think a little harder about something they hold so dear. But again, what are people willing to do about it?

We will most likely not have a II/III show in AZ for the first time since I got here now that Academy is gone to Div. I. So, someone else will have to watch II/III for me.

[tnmaiello]

Div 2/3 in crisis, heading for destruction? Hmmm, I just got home from working a midnight bingo with 8 volunteers from my organization. Tell those people 2/3 is headed for failure. Are there issues? Sure. Do we need to grow our brand of drum corps? Yes. There are many great, smart, passionate people all over the country working to do that.

Does eveyone know that DCI is made up of directors. The directors of corps in good standing vote on what, how, where, and when we do our thing. We all know why we do it....to see those smiles & tears of joy on the kids, staff, and fans after a great performance.

Its 3am, please forgive any grammar or spelling errors. Good night.

[Michael Boo]

...

What I don't get is why II/III isn't reaching out to DCA to form a Jr. Div. as an alternate to DCI?

...

Well, at least no one can wonder from where you're coming now, so thank you for clarifying that.

My largest concern with such a scenario is that you're advocating taking a rescource that by everyone's admission is limited and further diluting it.

How would this help all those corps west of Pennysylvania? You offered the possibility that the California corps might not come to Indianapolis. I haven't heard anything of that nature. Would they be served by DCA while staying in California? Couldn't regional touring exist now if it needed to be? (And would it be any different than what corps like The Academy did prior to last year?)

I guess I just don't get the point of hopping over to DCA when they already have a voice within their own circuit at DCI. I feel that having two circuits catering to the same limited number of corps would be counter to productivity. If there is concern about bodies coming to the II & III World Championship with "X" number of corps in it, how would it be if there were "X minus Y" corps in it, and how many would DCA's "Y" pull in with a limited number?

The corps need numbers to offer themselves as a tour. Having so many fewer corps (because not every corps would leave even in the east coast if it was an option) available for shows would not be a great selling point.

Rather than ripping asunder what we already have, I'd rather see us work together to build what is already there.

Respectfully submitted...

[Tom Brace]

Well, at least no one can wonder from where you're coming now, so thank you for clarifying that.

My largest concern with such a scenario is that you're advocating taking a rescource that by everyone's admission is limited and further diluting it.

How would this help all those corps west of Pennysylvania? You offered the possibility that the California corps might not come to Indianapolis. I haven't heard anything of that nature. Would they be served by DCA while staying in California? Couldn't regional touring exist now if it needed to be? (And would it be any different than what corps like The Academy did prior to last year?)

I guess I just don't get the point of hopping over to DCA when they already have a voice within their own circuit at DCI. I feel that having two circuits catering to the same limited number of corps would be counter to productivity. If there is concern about bodies coming to the II & III World Championship with "X" number of corps in it, how would it be if there were "X minus Y" corps in it, and how many would DCA's "Y" pull in with a limited number?

The corps need numbers to offer themselves as a tour. Having so many fewer corps (because not every corps would leave even in the east coast if it was an option) available for shows would not be a great selling point.

Rather than ripping asunder what we already have, I'd rather see us work together to build what is already there.

Respectfully submitted...

So Michael...just to be crystal here...you are of the opinion that staying with the current structure of having Div. II/III corps within DCI. So limited if no voice in the ultimate decision making (they get NO vote of DCI BoD because they are not member corps) and have to abide by DCIs schedule and limited payment structure.

Just to make sure I know where you are coming from my friend. I don't beleive that sticking with DCI as it is at present is in the best long term interests of Div. II/III.

I have spoken with and sat next to Pete Laflamme at a few DCI meetings in the past (10 years ago, albeit). He was Mr. DCI II/III and I thought the Spartans would NEVER make the Div. I jump. Well, it looks like that's changing now too.

So, last year was an anomoly. California II/IIIs didn't have a huge journey to make so they were all there at finals in spades. This year will be much different. Spartans and Surf may very well be gone from the circuit and although ECJ is striving to return, they have huge obstacles to getting back on the field...like past pay to staff, etc.

I know I tend to make things all black or white sometimes...but I believe II/III is hurting and it appears no one is discussing bright ideas on how to make it better except for perhaps forcing audiences to have to go see shows or trying to guilt them into going.

Michael...yes, last year was an anomoly, but while Div. I attendance went up by 30%+, Div. II/III went down by over 20%. So if the audience dwindles the revenue dwindles and we all know where that leads. So let's get together a group of concerned folks and I'm sure we could have some very productive discussions regarding II/IIIs future.

[Teal_Euph88]

If you look at the list of division 1 corps from finals years ago, apart from some at the top, you see names that aren't around anymore. There are lees corps in division 1 now then there were back then. Does that mean division 1 is dying. No. Yes there are many problems in II/III but i think as far as attendance, many problems with be solved when they are held in the same stadium. People aren't trying to travel across town to see II/III. I think the top few II/III corps should be able to have exhibition at division 1 finals, or at least semis, to get exposure out there.

For a long time you had corps like the Spartans who had no intention of moving up. Other corps never had an intention of staying in II/III. That's an interesting dynamic. Now it seems some corps are getting the mentality of Div 1 or bust. If every corps is trying to move up, in order for II/III to stay alive, more new corps would be needed.

[MrPolite13]

You know what you are right. From 10 yrs ago (1997) Magic isn't around anymore. 1 out of 12. In comparision to 6 out of 7 in Div 3 and 2 out of 5 in Div 2. By the way the winner of Div3 that yr were the Mandarins who are now in Div 1. I don't blame them. It was very much a natural progression for them. They won a lot of D 2/3 titles. If you want to be more amazed look at the Participants from Prelims in D2/3 comparision (97 & 07) What a shock.

Div 1 will NEVER DIE. When it does that means DCI has folded and a new organization will have to be started.

What happened to the circuits that use to host Div 2/3 shows exclusively. I recall when the Garden State Circuit was a big thing. So many corps back then. Man that was fun.

Your right a lot of people are starting more 2/3 corps but it takes years and a lot of money for a new corps to make any serious noise. Noise that would make a fan even come and see them. Been there, done that, lived it.

Much easier for a Div 1 to stay around (unless they lose a major source of funding). The talent alone even in the bottom Div1 is enough to bring members/fans out. The sound, color, drill, staff, etc. Most times people don't even come to a show till the lower Div3's are done. I should know. Was in the stands at a couple of them this season while my group got off the bus.

Div2/3 corps are the ones who takes the kid sitting on the porch with a basketball or doll and puts a horn, drum or flag in their hands. You will almost never see a Div1 do that. That is why I very much appreciate those few org like BD and SCV who support Div 2/3 by creating a cadet unit or B/C unit. Can you imagine how hot it would be if a few more corps did the same. Phantom did it a few years. (Cavalier Cadets, Boston Cadets, Glassmen Cadets, CadetsCadets :-) I mean we do train the kids that march these corps ( which I love and feel honored to do)

I also appreciate the work that DCI has done with WGI. So many units with young members who march in the Div 2/3 ranks.

Why did DCI change the way D 2/3 operates championships? Loved performing at night at the big stadium. Not many people are willing to get up at 9am (or earlier) in the top of the sun's heat to watch a drum corps show. Esp when they stayed in the stadium till 12am watching D1 the night before. Does anyone think putting D2/3 back in front of D1 comp on say mon would help or would it just leave people not come into town till thurs?

[Tom Brace]

You know what you are right. From 10 yrs ago (1997) Magic isn't around anymore. 1 out of 12. In comparision to 6 out of 7 in Div 3 and 2 out of 5 in Div 2. By the way the winner of Div3 that yr were the Mandarins who are now in Div 1. I don't blame them. It was very much a natural progression for them. They won a lot of D 2/3 titles. If you want to be more amazed look at the Participants from Prelims in D2/3 comparision (97 & 07) What a shock.

Div 1 will NEVER DIE. When it does that means DCI has folded and a new organization will have to be started.

What happened to the circuits that use to host Div 2/3 shows exclusively. I recall when the Garden State Circuit was a big thing. So many corps back then. Man that was fun.

Your right a lot of people are starting more 2/3 corps but it takes years and a lot of money for a new corps to make any serious noise. Noise that would make a fan even come and see them. Been there, done that, lived it.

Much easier for a Div 1 to stay around (unless they lose a major source of funding). The talent alone even in the bottom Div1 is enough to bring members/fans out. The sound, color, drill, staff, etc. Most times people don't even come to a show till the lower Div3's are done. I should know. Was in the stands at a couple of them this season while my group got off the bus.

Div2/3 corps are the ones who takes the kid sitting on the porch with a basketball or doll and puts a horn, drum or flag in their hands. You will almost never see a Div1 do that. That is why I very much appreciate those few org like BD and SCV who support Div 2/3 by creating a cadet unit or B/C unit. Can you imagine how hot it would be if a few more corps did the same. Phantom did it a few years. (Cavalier Cadets, Boston Cadets, Glassmen Cadets, CadetsCadets :-) I mean we do train the kids that march these corps ( which I love and feel honored to do)

I also appreciate the work that DCI has done with WGI. So many units with young members who march in the Div 2/3 ranks.

Why did DCI change the way D 2/3 operates championships? Loved performing at night at the big stadium. Not many people are willing to get up at 9am (or earlier) in the top of the sun's heat to watch a drum corps show. Esp when they stayed in the stadium till 12am watching D1 the night before. Does anyone think putting D2/3 back in front of D1 comp on say mon would help or would it just leave people not come into town till thurs?

It is simply a cost issue. Now DCI only rents the venue from Thursday - Saturday and not all week. A smaller venue is now rented for II/III that is more appropriate to the crowd size. So DCI makes a smart business decision to save some money.