A rich kid's sport

[FUGI]

heh this is why Im happy I aged out already and DCA ( All Age Corps ) dues are only about $200 - $400 plus hotel and occasional bus ( flight too if from the west coast or midwest )

I think DCA's typical lower corps fees is attracting that younger demographic that can't afford DCI.

[MikeD]

Maybe they'll say the tours that are thousands of miles are too much. Maybe local circuits will start up and local competitions will make more sense. Maybe this would make it affordable for more kids to participate.

Nah, that's silly, I know. That would make it too much like drum and bugle corps

Corps folded in every era...pre-DCI as well as the DCI era. Local circuits won't work unless there are enough corps...and show sponsors...to create a season's worth of weekend shows for the local style corps. Who will attend these shows as an audience? Even in my day marching in the GSC (68-69) and teaching/judging (76-80) a lot of shows were just run as home-and-home between corps at whatever fields...sometime in parking lots...to fulfill circuit requirements. No audience to speak of at all. Some of course were better and more elaborate.

What makes sense to me is to realize that the local band circuits of today are the local corps circuits of the past and not try to recreate 1967 in 2007.

[sburstall]

Corps folded in every era...pre-DCI as well as the DCI era. Local circuits won't work unless there are enough corps...and show sponsors...to create a season's worth of weekend shows for the local style corps. Who will attend these shows as an audience? Even in my day marching in the GSC (68-69) and teaching/judging (76-80) a lot of shows were just run as home-and-home between corps at whatever fields...sometime in parking lots...to fulfill circuit requirements. No audience to speak of at all. Some of course were better and more elaborate.

But the BIG difference between now and then was the startup cost of getting a corps on the field. Yeah corps came and went, but for every corps that folded, another took it's place. It really wasn't until the DCI era that replacements ended.

[Tom Brace]

Corps folded in every era...pre-DCI as well as the DCI era. Local circuits won't work unless there are enough corps...and show sponsors...to create a season's worth of weekend shows for the local style corps. Who will attend these shows as an audience? Even in my day marching in the GSC (68-69) and teaching/judging (76-80) a lot of shows were just run as home-and-home between corps at whatever fields...sometime in parking lots...to fulfill circuit requirements. No audience to speak of at all. Some of course were better and more elaborate.

What makes sense to me is to realize that the local band circuits of today are the local corps circuits of the past and not try to recreate 1967 in 2007.

So Mike...if I might synopsize...you don't see a scenario where "going back" to local shows would work. Can you see a scenario where corps could slash their budgets, travel less, do more local shows, spend less and charge less tuition?

As wonderful a utopia as that sounds, can a cogent plan be created that accomplishes these things?

Also, it was mentioned regarding travel, but with fewer shows, many corps are actually stationary while on the road. The might perform on a Friday and Saturday and then travel on Saturday to housing for the next week's show and be there 3-4 days before moving on. There maybe a slight change in the number of miles a corps ultimately travels, but the day to day travel is lessened (fewer short trips) versus the longer hauls of today.

[MikeD]

But the BIG difference between now and then was the startup cost of getting a corps on the field. Yeah corps came and went, but for every corps that folded, another took it's place. It really wasn't until the DCI era that replacements ended.

I don't agree with that, and IMO the startup of new local corps...or lack of them...had nothing to do with DCI, anyway. Think of the 70's with it's huge inflation and the first gas crisis. Also consider that the VFW/AL posts were aging...the kids of post members who were in the military during WWII and Korea had aged out to a large extent, and with Viet nam vets not joining the posts in large number, the ready pool of young kids as members, and parents to run the corps, faded. CYO organizations in the cities were not the powers they were in the 50's and 60's, and they were pulling away from corps even pre-DCI.

Just because a huge decline in corps happened in the timeframe of DCI doesn't mean that DCI was the cause of it. These were LOCAL corps that died out in huge numbers...starting pre-DCI and extending through DCI's formative years.

[MikeD]

So Mike...if I might synopsize...you don't see a scenario where "going back" to local shows would work. Can you see a scenario where corps could slash their budgets, travel less, do more local shows, spend less and charge less tuition?

As wonderful a utopia as that sounds, can a cogent plan be created that accomplishes these things?

I don't see it. There are not enough corps to reach critical mass in tight enough geographic areas around the country to create nearly a season's worth of local shows for all cops. To really cut their budgets, the corps would have to be home-based for long enough to make a difference, with the members living at home...oops...members in World Class come from all over the country...so where do these members live? The touring model is what makes it feasible to operate these corps as they are.

[sburstall]

I don't agree with that, and IMO the startup of new local corps...or lack of them...had nothing to do with DCI, anyway. Think of the 70's with it's huge inflation and the first gas crisis. Also consider that the VFW/AL posts were aging...the kids of post members who were in the military during WWII and Korea had aged out to a large extent, and with Viet nam vets not joining the posts in large number, the ready pool of young kids as members, and parents to run the corps, faded. CYO organizations in the cities were not the powers they were in the 50's and 60's, and they were pulling away from corps even pre-DCI.

Just because a huge decline in corps happened in the timeframe of DCI doesn't mean that DCI was the cause of it. These were LOCAL corps that died out in huge numbers...starting pre-DCI and extending through DCI's formative years.

Never stated that DCI was totally at fault, BUT I'm not saying DCI is innocent in this either. Infact, the largest decline was under DCI and Pescone's watch. DCI finally decided to get involved financial viabilities of corps when corps started having problems in the 90s and the mantel of leadership changed to Dan. It's true that many lesser corps in the 70s folded because of the gas crisis and high inflation but when the bigger and more established corps started to have problems THEN DCI decided to do something about it.

[ToferVis]

Ohhh no, the size change will not help offset members' tuition. It'll help offset the corps' expenses! They may not be paying more for vehicles and fuel by adding 15 people, but they'll be paying for more food, more equipment, maybe even more staff. So the extra 15 people will bring in more money, and add expenses that in theory should be less than the amount the new people brought. Where will the surplus go? Back to the members? If that's true, I'd like to see actual evidence of a corps doing this.

yes and no...it's a good point. i guess it really comes down to WHERE they put those extra 15...if they spread it out, no they wouldn't need more staff, etc. now...we've all noticed the trend is that everyone is adding a cymbal line back...yes this sucks because yes they have to have new staff....so yes i suppose in theory i'm right, but it wont happen that way.

[MikeD]

Never stated that DCI was totally at fault, BUT I'm not saying DCI is innocent in this either. Infact, the largest decline was under DCI and Pescone's watch. DCI finally decided to get involved financial viabilities of corps when corps started having problems in the 90s and the mantel of leadership changed to Dan. It's true that many lesser corps in the 70s folded because of the gas crisis and high inflation but when the bigger and more established corps started to have problems THEN DCI decided to do something about it.

Local corps and circuits were not part of DCI's "watch" as you put it. DCI was not responsible for the many Garden State Circuit corps that folded through the 60's and 70's, and into to the 80's.

[audiodb]

So Mike...if I might synopsize...you don't see a scenario where "going back" to local shows would work. Can you see a scenario where corps could slash their budgets, travel less, do more local shows, spend less and charge less tuition?

As wonderful a utopia as that sounds, can a cogent plan be created that accomplishes these things?

Probably not. You tell me. Here's what it would take:

1. Cut back touring by returning to regional grouping in the early-season.

2. Competitive parity must become DCI's top agenda item, so that regional contests can maintain fan interest.

3. Growth must become DCI's top er, other top agenda item, as we need more corps to fill regional show lineups.

So, what do you think? Were you scoffing before you even got to #2? Would today's member corps directors scoff just as quickly? Well, if so, then there's no going back.

A decade ago, regional competition was stagnating as corps remained in the same placement order week after week (or year after year, for that matter). Instead of stirring the pot with parity, the activity's leaders chose to stir the competitive pot in early-season by traveling more. Regional circuits were phased out in favor of a full-season DCI schedule that moved some member corps in and out of regions throughout the season. Wonder if anyone devising this strategy thought about the volatility of fuel pricing?