DCA is "filling a void" left by DCI's Super Corps Model

[Meaghatron]

Typically, high school and college band camps are in late July or early August.

Many corps kids I worked with had to work hard to get permission to be able to march high school or college marching bands without attending the "required" band camps. It's easier to work through this requirement today than it was 20 years ago as more corps people are teaching high school and college marching bands.

I know that some bands down here in Florida start practices in June (a couple a week) and run every couple weeks until band camp in late-July/early-August.

[audiodb]

800 corps were not folded because of DCI. Some never competed in DCI. I think you have an inflated sense of DCIs reach.

I think you have an inflated sense of what my previous post said.

[Perry S]

It's always corps management's fault when a corps fails. Fact. Just like it's always pilot error when a plane crashes. Fact.

Why else would some corps succeed while others fail? Because the key difference in the component is the management.

DCI DOES NOT TELL A CORPS HOW TO RUN THEIR BUSINESS!!! It doesn't. It offers choices. It offers growth opportunities. Corps have succeeded in DCI by going against the "business norm" of DCI.

800 corps were not folded because of DCI. Some never competed in DCI. I think you have an inflated sense of DCIs reach.

But, all of that is beside the point of the OP. DCA is either filling a void or not. Some believe it can. Others, like myself feel, to a great degree, it has not yet proved it can do that.

Eveything else is just an excuse to DCI bash.

It's ALWAYS pilot error when a plane crashes?!?! I know for a FACT that quite a few pane crashes are straight up equipment failure. Nothing to do with the pilot whatsoever. FACT !!!

[Dale Bari]

It's ALWAYS pilot error when a plane crashes?!?! I know for a FACT that quite a few pane crashes are straight up equipment failure. Nothing to do with the pilot whatsoever. FACT !!!

I think he's using that concept because it is assumed that the system is infallible, so human fallibility is the only fault. Much like in the computer world, all error is operator error because the machine cannot make a mistake. Humans have ultimate responsibility over machines, so any problem is the person's fault. This is also at work in the US Navy - if a ship runs aground, the captain is at fault even if he had nothing to do with conning the ship at the moment it struck bottom because it is his ultimate responsibility.

Of course, on the one hand, his thesis that DCI doesn't fold corps relies on a strict cause and effect relationship. Since DCI is not nominally in charge of a corps, then there is no way DCI can literally cause a corps to fold. On the other hand, he uses the "unwritten rule" of crash investigation to bolster his case. However, this relies on a very liberal interpretation of cause and effect, because while the loss of hydraulic fluid may have been the direct cause of the crash of Flight X, the pilot bears ultimate responsibility for the how the plane stops on the ground (ie intact or in pieces).

So, he's arguing that the two situations are congruent, and therefore his case is proven.

But, he relies on completely opposite (and situational) interpretations of cause and effect to arrive at those two independent verdicts. In one case, DCI is infallible, therefore the corps director is at fault for folding the corps, because DCI bears no ultimate responsibility. In the other case, the plane is infallible, therefore the pilot is at fault for crashing the plane, because the pilot bears the ultimate responsibility.

Edit: As for the "fact" of the actual cause of plane crashes, the Joseph Nall report of 2005 for general aviation (planes 12,500 lb or less) said pilot error is the cause of 76% of all crashes, and 75.5% of fatal crashes. According to a 2003 NTSB report, for Part 121 (scheduled commercial aviation), historically pilots or other personnel were cited as causes in a majority of cases, more than aircraft or environment, but that in 2003, the rate for personnel and environment were approximately equal.

Edited March 11, 2008 by Dale Bari

[wishbonecav]

Ladies and Gents,

Tom Brace was pretty diplomatic in his last post addressed to me. I'd like to return the favor.

If you see the development of our discussion, and it HAS developed from the original argument and title (which may no longer be perfectly appropriate), we are trying to determine cause and effect and solution.

We differ on "cause".

I say DCI, in its relentless pursuit of a Super Corps Tour, has created an "all or nothing" competitive atmosphere that marginalized many corps from existence....not JUST financially, but also in creating a value proposition that diminishes any other competitive corps or contest opportunity beyond the Super Corps to second class status.

Tom believes this is corps-Darwinism at work and that the "market forces" in the equation dictate the outcome.

I say"market forces" were not created in a vaccuum, but were actually self-created by the voting organizations themselves.

But maybe "market forces"...what paying customers wanted to see and didn't care to see...dictated the voting decisions.

Hmmmm.

Maybe customers demanded the Super Corps (voting with dollars) and didn't demand the less-impressive weekend / limited tour (WLT) groups.

So the actual paying customer 'market' may have dictated the emphasis on the Super Corps Model at the expense of the WLT's.

Customer: We want to see the Super Corps and are willing to pay to see them!

DCI: Let's give 'em what they want!

Hmmmm.

The "effect" is a Super Corps model that is superior to any other form of outdoor pageantry (ok, that's an opinion, but I think it flys on DCP) and one that is attractive to 400,000 live fans this past summer (including me at Chicago, Buffalo, & Pasadena).

Hmmmm.

I guess the key for me is that I believe that there is a net positive contribution to be made by having MORE GOOD CORPS.

But it's possible that adding 4 or 5 corps to the slate in Allentown doesn't translate to even 1 more ticket sale. Did anyone make their ultimate decision to attend the show based on the inclusion of the Spartans and Raiders? Or were they coming ANYWAY?

If I added Cascades or Southwind to the contest, their participation certainly ADDS to the logistical, housing, contest, & facility requirements...but MORE CORPS, from a market standpoint, might actually be a "diminishing return."

Hmmm.

I have to be mindful of the fact that the on-field productions of the WLT's simply might not be as valued by the other paying customers as they are by me.

I am saddened by the loss of corps. I am saddened by the loss of their contribution. I BELIEVE in the WLT model. I VALUE it and WISH that others VALUED it as much as me. Maybe they just don't.

Here's where the rubber meets the road, I guess:

If the WLT model still produces GOOD DRUM CORPS (DCA), and the WLT model has enough participants to put on a great show (DCA) and the ticket price measures up with the value proposition (DCA)....

...all I can do to demonstrate my set of beliefs and values is buy a ticket to DCA.

Where is that phone number???

Edited March 11, 2008 by wishbonecav

[kusankusho]

Completely OT from a whole other thread that I can't find...

Mike - you were right - it was Mahler, not Hovhaness. I heard it the other day.

OK - back to our regularly scheduled bun-fight.

[GuyW]

....Most kids that are doing DCI have no idea of DCA until they may see a DCA corps at an exhibition at a DCI show.......DCA is an option of course, but not one that is known....by many DCI age kids....

Donny

I'm not going to disagree with your experience of what kids know.

I just want to note that during discussions about recruiting kids to march traditional JUNIOR corps shows, I'm often told, "kids know all about everything DC from the 'net and don't like traditional shows, so you'll be a failure".

Maybe the persons who told me that had an agenda??

[Fred Windish]

This truly is an amazing discussion! Seems to be no end in sight.

Here's what I see . . .

The top corps of DCI are pushing 'evolution' SO hard, spending SO much additional money on development, they are creating a unique and special product that is becoming increasingly difficult to achieve.

We can expect fewer and fewer survivors in this quest. BUT . . .

for those who remain, the product on the field should be quite spectacular. Incredible talent, constant costume changes, stunning back drops, and unique special effects. WOW!

Coming soon to a stadium near you . . .

As an old guy, I equate what's happening to the old Ice Capades. Something impressive? YES. Something you will be willing to spend money for once per year (when it comes to your town)? YES

Something DCA-like? Positively NO.

(sorry if this observation offends anyone)

[GuyW]

I honestly dont like the fact that many of these students use Pioneer (and corps like them) for a stepping stone... there are the few that actually stay at Pioneer to age out in a green uniform. I dont mind teaching there because someone needs to show these kids what the experience is, and help them get to a point of achievement they can feel proud of.

Donny

And they should feel proud if they did the work to perform their show.

Thank you for having (and acting on) loyalty and ideals...

Edited March 11, 2008 by GuyW

[KeithHall]

Ladies and Gents,

Tom believes this is corps-Darwinism at work and that the "market forces" in the equation dictate the outcome.

It is survival of the fittest or in this case, survival of the corps that has the money to tour, to pay the best staff, etc.

I say"market forces" were not created in a vaccuum, but were actually self-created by the voting organizations themselves.

DCI slowly "took over" shows (US Open and others) and adding shows that had the money to pay each corps , judges and DCI.

But maybe "market forces"...what paying customers wanted to see and didn't care to see...dictated the voting decisions.

Hmmmm.

Maybe customers demanded the Super Corps (voting with dollars) and didn't demand the less-impressive weekend / limited tour (WLT) groups.

So the actual paying customer 'market' may have dictated the emphasis on the Super Corps Model at the expense of the WLT's.

Customer: We want to see the Super Corps and are willing to pay to see them!

DCI: Let's give 'em what they want!

Hmmmm.

The "effect" is a Super Corps model that is superior to any other form of outdoor pageantry (ok, that's an opinion, but I think it flys on DCP) and one that is attractive to 400,000 live fans this past summer (including me at Chicago, Buffalo, & Pasadena).

Hmmmm.

I guess the key for me is that I believe that there is a net positive contribution to be made by having MORE GOOD CORPS.

But it's possible that adding 4 or 5 corps to the slate in Allentown doesn't translate to even 1 more ticket sale. Did anyone make their ultimate decision to attend the show based on the inclusion of the Spartans and Raiders? Or were they coming ANYWAY?

If I added Cascades or Southwind to the contest, their participation certainly ADDS to the logistical, housing, contest, & facility requirements...but MORE CORPS, from a market standpoint, might actually be a "diminishing return."

Hmmm.

I have to be mindful of the fact that the on-field productions of the WLT's simply might not be as valued by the other paying customers as they are by me.

I am saddened by the loss of corps. I am saddened by the loss of their contribution. I BELIEVE in the WLT model. I VALUE it and WISH that others VALUED it as much as me. Maybe they just don't.

Here's where the rubber meets the road, I guess:

If the WLT model still produces GOOD DRUM CORPS (DCA), and the WLT model has enough participants to put on a great show (DCA) and the ticket price measures up with the value proposition (DCA)....

...all I can do to demonstrate my set of beliefs and values is buy a ticket to DCA.

Where is that phone number???