Should DCI and DCA Join Forces

[relmquist]

Interesting.

Your position seems to be rooted in a form of logic at the start, but then you later contradict your own talking points.

I'll paraphrase: You assert that DCA WILL have electronics because the old goats will move on and the young will reign, but then you declare that DCI WILL NOT have woodwinds in the future. Logic would state that if the "yung'ns" will bring electronics in the future, what would prevent them from doing anything else in this process of "evolution" that you cite?

As it relates to "purity" in a musical ensemble or genre, my question for you... seriously... is when do you personally decide that a Symphony Orchestra is no longer a Symphony Orchestra? If they put down their orchestral instruments, don marching band uniforms and instruments, and then perform only in football game halftime shows, are they still a symphony orchestra to you, just because they say they are?

The point (as most reasonable thinkers conclude) is that there are some fundamental aspects of what makes a Rock Band a Rock Band, an Orchestra an Orchestra, a Barbershop Quartet a Barbershop Quartet, a Marching Band a Marching Band, and a Drum & Bugle Corps a Drum and Bugle Corps. I don't know of anyone that is "against" the evolution of musical equipment, how to perform on that equipment, and other creative performance ideas, nor even the idea of the creation of new kinds of marching ensembles. The issue is the seemingly deliberate agenda to eliminate a unique type of ensemble for the purpose of replacing it with something else fundamentally different. Response?

I really think that people are worrying about the wrong things here. Drum corps as we know it : Percussion, BRASS and Guard will not change. How each of these section are interpreted will change. But there will never be woodwinds or strings on the field in a drum corps show. Fundamentally drum corps are a precussion, brass and guard ensemble. That is why DCI has begun calling them marching music ensembles. I don't like the name change, but it is a more accurate description of the activity. The "drum and bugle corps" name doesn't acknowledge the guard and in this day and age if you do not have a guard you cannot compete. This is a good thing. What we call drum corps (senior or junior) are more accurately described as marching music ensembles.

Technically (most) electronics instruments are percussive instruments and thus would fit in the marching music ensemble mode. Woodwinds and strings are not. Can their sounds be produced by electronics? Yes. Does this mean that woodwinds and strings are already in marching music ensembles? No.

Calling drum and bugle corps marching music ensembles does not change the fundamental aspect of it: Marching percussion, brass and guard.

The senior/ all-age marching music ensembles will also incorporate electronics eventually. So why not work to combine the two associations to work together for the betterment of the activity. They could call it Marching Music Ensembles International (MMEI). I don't care what they call it, I just hope they can work together to somehow save the activity that I love.

[relmquist]

you can challenge that DCA is growing, and you'd be wrong to disagree. in 2001, what 16 units? Now anywhere from 22-27. Shows were only in the NE then...now you have shows in all of the sanctioned regions, and soon a sanctioned show in California again. Now, DCA is being introduced to fans all across the country, whereas 7 years ago, you may see a few at some DCM shows, and the Renegades out West, and that was what their 3rd year?

Now you see DCA corps at major DCI shows like Atlanta. I think you saw DCA corps maybe 4 times at DCI finals before then...in what 30 some years?

DCA is growing, slowly but surely. You have what 30 some all age corps across the country, including those that do not trek up here for finals. It's basically doubled from where it was even 10 years ago. You have fewer 2/3 year wonders that get a corps, come a few times, then disappear. Now you see the same names every year, and always a few new ones getting added.

Trust me, follow DCA and the DCA forum, and you'd see the growth

So you would rather see DCI die because it does not follow some model you believe in? This is very short sighted and narrow minded. You should be working for the preservation of what is left of both circuits. The best way to do this would be for the organizations to work together to improve all drum and bugle corps. Just because you don't like DCI for some decisions they made about instrumentation and touring models are you willing to see them disappear? I would rather see both circuits prosper and work together rather than see one die because I did not like a particular choice one circuit made.

[Jeff Ream]

So you would rather see DCI die because it does not follow some model you believe in? This is very short sighted and narrow minded. You should be working for the preservation of what is left of both circuits. The best way to do this would be for the organizations to work together to improve all drum and bugle corps. Just because you don't like DCI for some decisions they made about instrumentation and touring models are you willing to see them disappear? I would rather see both circuits prosper and work together rather than see one die because I did not like a particular choice one circuit made.

where did I say I wanted DCI to die? Nowhere did I say that.

I was discussing the fact that it was said that DCA was NOT growing.

perhaps if you read more into the entire post, you will see I said nothing about wanting DCI to die. However, trying to merge the two, which have completely different charters and missions, is to spell death to both.

What DCI needs to do is to stop being "the rich kids" club, and promote the growth of junior corps. Merging with DCA will not help them do that at all. And I guarantee you, you merge the 2, and DCA will suffer along the lines Open Class has.

[garfield]

There is a reason why both organizations cannot combine to improve the activity as a whole. The reason is stated in DCI's own mission statement. They (DCI) exist to serve the needs of its "member corps." Thus DCI and DCA seem to be antithetical in their very purpose for existing.

DCI has taken much criticism over the years because it fails to truly serve the most basic needs of all competing corps. Some would argue that because of DCI's influence in the activity, there exists a moral obligation to ensure a place for all corps to survive, if not thrive. The reality however is that most decisions made by DCI over the past 15 years or so have been for the benefit of its member corps... not all corps. They should not be criticized for that, as they've made no secret about who they "serve." The end result for DCI is what we have today, in terms of the number of competing junior corps and the internal "strength" of the "international" circuit.

Participation in DCI today (particularly at the World Class level) is for the "kids" that can afford it both financially and in terms of time commitment. We often refer to World Class as the "elite" of the activity, but I would argue that this "corps classism" mindset has spilled over to simply creating and perpetuating an "elitist" circuit that exists for those that can afford to participate. Who can argue that there doesn't exist a "haves" and "have-nots" dynamic within DCI. They're drowning in parity and equity issues throughout. Many have been predicting for years that it can't last, and there's nothing that I see in the near or distant future that could lead a reasonable person to conclude otherwise.

On the other hand (though certainly not perfect), DCA functions with a completely different mindset. They are generally and genuinely concerned with preserving the activity as a whole, and thus, they ensure that there is an environment that exists where all corps can sustain themselves as competitive units (i.e., Class-A; Alumni-Corps Competitions; Open Class; Mini-Corps Competitions; etc...). In fact, the very concept of an "all-age corps" vs. "senior corps" shows how they have responded to changes within this nitch activity. They're growing for a reason... they want to, and they work at it. They're inclusive in their approach, rather than the exclusive natured DCI model. Whereas DCI has gotten quite "fuzzy" on defining who or what it is, DCA is still offering something for almost any organization (or individual) that wants to engage in the competitive art form that is recognizably and unquestionably drum & bugle corps... IMO

What bothers me about your logic is the connection you make between the mandate of DCI and the cost of marching, then add the "elite" moniker. I don't believe DCI has mandated the cost to march to any corps, and I don't think that the boards of most corps have actively sought the "elite" title by intentionally increasing fees as a methodology. The cost to field a top-12 corps is increasing like everything else (acknowledging the temptation to keep up with the top corps in spending on new tweaks and trinkets). But when corps size was boosted I didn't sense any problem attracting kids to fill those spots.

Parents will do what they can or want to do to see that their kids get opportunities, be it soccer, drum corps, or clay-pigeon shooting. And all of these are expensive hobbies (er, "extra-curricular activities"). Some will be able/want to support their kid and some will not. Some will have the talent to compete with the best, some will not.

But that does not make them, or their corps, or the governing organization elitists.

IMO, your comments enflame feelings of elitism that can't be verified, and incite unnecessarily jealous feelings between those who can't, for whatever reason, get to that competative level and those that can. Taken to the extreme if these feelings and complaints pervade it will undoubtedly lead to a relativism mandate that "well, can't everyone play?"

No, they can't. I'm sorry, but that's life.

DCI member corps are an elite group, but they are not elitists.

They are the best of the best, and they are why we spend so much of OUR hard-earned money to support and watch them.

Off my soapbox...for now.

Edited October 16, 2009 by garfield

[NashvillePat]

Golly boys and girls remember back in the good ole days of the 1990's when you could go to the DCM championships and there were 25-40 competing DIV II/III Corps? What happened to all of them?

[Bob J]

So, can anyone tell me the difference between a "marching music ensemble" and a marching band?

[davla00]

you can challenge that DCA is growing, and you'd be wrong to disagree. in 2001, what 16 units? Now anywhere from 22-27. Shows were only in the NE then...now you have shows in all of the sanctioned regions, and soon a sanctioned show in California again. Now, DCA is being introduced to fans all across the country, whereas 7 years ago, you may see a few at some DCM shows, and the Renegades out West, and that was what their 3rd year?

Now you see DCA corps at major DCI shows like Atlanta. I think you saw DCA corps maybe 4 times at DCI finals before then...in what 30 some years?

DCA is growing, slowly but surely. You have what 30 some all age corps across the country, including those that do not trek up here for finals. It's basically doubled from where it was even 10 years ago. You have fewer 2/3 year wonders that get a corps, come a few times, then disappear. Now you see the same names every year, and always a few new ones getting added.

Trust me, follow DCA and the DCA forum, and you'd see the growth

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Is it though 30 units with 3000 people total, from 10 years about were it was 20 units with the same 3000 people....... I am not meaning to be mean here or be contrary..... but I think in order to make statements even like mine,,,,,, numbers are proof. Like I said I will call a mea culpa if someone can provide participation #'s.

Same thing as you Jeff, you see on these threads about how many people are at events... I hate that....... Give me real gate #'s that show me show attendance is up or down.....

So real numbers are the truth teller. That is what I will believe. Not that I don't trust you Jeff of course, but in order for ANY Of us to make statements, as I put IMHO in several places in my post.... that is all it is is opinion.

Again, I will plead mea culpa with real #'s.

Believe you me I come from DCI back in the day, I don't like or care for the tack they are on. I am also in the same vein NOT convinced that DCA is the answer to the evils of DCI or vise versa.

I want the WHOLE activity of drum corps to remain for my kids. That is my goal. Whether it survives as DCA or DCI doesn't matter to me - I WANT it to survive and thrive in ALL ways possible.

[JimF-LowBari]

DCA in no way has as many top class corps as it did 20 years ago -- they have more divisions, more niches, but that doesn't necessarily mean MORE people - it means more avenues for people to participate, or view and enjoy.... that is all.

Just checked 1989 DCA Prelims on srcorps.com and there were 18 corps with only two outside of the Northeast (MBI and Chicago Sr Vanguard). By 1993 that number went dow to a total of 13 corps at Prelims. And I don't have the heart to count the number of deceased corps from those years. DCA saw the handwriting on the wall as to the direction big time (aka big cost) Senior corps was going and decided to be more accepting to the smaller (aka cheaper) corps. Considering the number of new corps of all sizes since that time it has paid off.

I'll leave you to decide what is "top class" corps. IMO, DCAs best idea in the last 20 years was to create the Class A smaller group. More importantly DCA has included those corps in the Finals performances which the crowd seems to enjoy. Quite the opposite (IMO) of DCIs way of handling OC corps during DCI week.

Edited October 15, 2009 by JimF-3rdBari

[Captncontra]

I really think that people are worrying about the wrong things here. Drum corps as we know it : Percussion, BRASS and Guard will not change. How each of these section are interpreted will change. But there will never be woodwinds or strings on the field in a drum corps show. Fundamentally drum corps are a precussion, brass and guard ensemble.

So... we were all imagining the string bass in Spirit's pit?

[Jeff Ream]

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Is it though 30 units with 3000 people total, from 10 years about were it was 20 units with the same 3000 people....... I am not meaning to be mean here or be contrary..... but I think in order to make statements even like mine,,,,,, numbers are proof. Like I said I will call a mea culpa if someone can provide participation #'s.

it wasnt 20 units with 3000 people 10 years ago. Not even close. In fact, many corps in finals weren't close to full...some 30 some members short. DCA Class A was barely there then....it had on average 4 corps coming in...now it has what 12/13? There's growth right there....DCI surely cant show that growth in their smaller class. Now the Open class corps at DCA are all closer to being full.

if you had 10 years ago 12 open class corps, maybe 100 members you had 1200 members there, and with 65 as the limit for Class A, then you had 260...total 1460

this year...say you had 13 Open Class corps at 100 members each...1300 members....Class A, 12 corps at 65....780....total 2080. a 600 member plus growth in 10 years for DCA is huge, and many Open Class corps were knocking on the door of being full or full.

Same thing as you Jeff, you see on these threads about how many people are at events... I hate that....... Give me real gate #'s that show me show attendance is up or down.....

Agreed. And DCA has become a lot more open about how many show up, a lot more so than DCI. But when you factor in 10 shows around the country for DCA they never had before, as well as the usual NE standbys, yes attendance for DCA is up across the country

So real numbers are the truth teller. That is what I will believe. Not that I don't trust you Jeff of course, but in order for ANY Of us to make statements, as I put IMHO in several places in my post.... that is all it is is opinion.

I just gave you a few. not exact, but a pretty close estimate of what DCA had in 1999 and what it has now. Again, these numbers do not even take into account the DCA corps that did not come to Rochester this year.

But when you look at Atlanta having 2 DCA shows, Tennesse having one, a few in Minnesota and Wisconsin.....shows that were pipe dreams 10 years ago....yeah, DCA is growing.

Again, I will plead mea culpa with real #'s.

Believe you me I come from DCI back in the day, I don't like or care for the tack they are on. I am also in the same vein NOT convinced that DCA is the answer to the evils of DCI or vise versa.

I want the WHOLE activity of drum corps to remain for my kids. That is my goal. Whether it survives as DCA or DCI doesn't matter to me - I WANT it to survive and thrive in ALL ways possible.

I want all of drum corps to survive too. But merging the two is the ONE guaranteed way to kill it off quick.

Edited October 15, 2009 by jeffsnewjetta