On the subject of uniform changes...

[DrinkinOuttaCups]

Here's a thought I had - can uniform changes affect the way a corps places? And I don't mean in the way of "Oh you have a cool uniform now so now we're gonna give you more points." I mean, like, does it affect visual scores? Are there are any examples of something like this happening? The only two I could possibly use as an example would be when Blue Stars made some alterations to their uniform after '07 (they jumped to 8th the next year), and maybe even Phantom's uniform change from '08 to '09 (and the resulting drop from 1st to 9th).

Now, I'm not saying that those jumps (or falls) are solely because of the uniform change, but can it actually affect scores in any way? Are there any other examples of corps doing this, perhaps back in the day? I thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss. Here's hoping it doesn't devolve into another flamewar.

[BAC oboist]

Cadets haven't changed. (We'll ignore the middle of this decade.) They're always top 6. BAC doesn't change much. Since '99, they've been 5 - 10.

That's all I can think of right now - tough day at school.

[709]

I hope not. If you could change your competitive standing just by changing your shirt, then we should just scrap the whole system and start over with everyone wearing the same uniform or something.

The only way I can see a uniform making a competitive impact is in recruiting, but even that is a huge stretch in my opinion.

[CitBos]

I can't remember the exact year, it might have been maybe '05 or '06, right around there, Spirit had a minor change in their uniform during the show where that white triangle on their jacket (does it have an exact name?) change to like green by the member pulling off what I thought was velcro. And then there was also Bluecoats this past year ('09) where they also had a minor uniform change during the show. Those are the only two examples that I can think off where a uniform change would affect(effect?) the visual score. But if the uniform is changed during the off-season, I don't really see how that would affect the visual score, or any score for that matter...

[Jeremy Denzer]

a bit off topic, but why do corps feel the need to change uniform styles so often. In my opinion most coprps have lost their identity. In many cases (with the exception of BAC and HNC) if they didn't announce which corps was on the field I would have no idea who was competing. Plus it seems like an enormous waste of money.

[AlexL]

Here's a thought I had - can uniform changes affect the way a corps places? And I don't mean in the way of "Oh you have a cool uniform now so now we're gonna give you more points." I mean, like, does it affect visual scores? Are there are any examples of something like this happening? The only two I could possibly use as an example would be when Blue Stars made some alterations to their uniform after '07 (they jumped to 8th the next year), and maybe even Phantom's uniform change from '08 to '09 (and the resulting drop from 1st to 9th).

Now, I'm not saying that those jumps (or falls) are solely because of the uniform change, but can it actually affect scores in any way? Are there any other examples of corps doing this, perhaps back in the day? I thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss. Here's hoping it doesn't devolve into another flamewar.

Blue Stars made the biggest changes from 06 to 07... same placement in 06 and 07. Removed the cross-straps, which highlighted dirt. Unfortunately, the different colored legs on the pants highlighted dirt as much, if not more.

In 08 they got rid of the 2 colored pants , and went from helmets to shakos midway through the season. I think these might have helped their visual score a bit, but overall the corps came out with a much higher performance level in 08, so that would probably be the biggest factor.

Edited November 4, 2009 by alarson83

[ouooga]

Blue Stars made the biggest changes from 06 to 07... same placement in 06 and 07. Removed the cross-straps, which highlighted dirt. Unfortunately, the different colored legs on the pants highlighted dirt as much, if not more.

In 08 they got rid of the 2 colored pants , and went from helmets to shakos midway through the season. I think these might have helped their visual score a bit, but overall the corps came out with a much higher performance level in 08, so that would probably be the biggest factor.

I disagree. I think the 07 corps was phenomenally better than the 06 corps, and the pants held them back. They had the most exposed feet in DCI that year. I personally feel that if they had their current pants in 2007, they would have beaten out Spirit to make finals.

Uniform affects the visual score incredibly, especially when you make changes. Having things like multicolored pants, or white pants with a dark top, spats, stripes on the legs, etc., your feet become more exposed to the judges. If you have different colored arms on huge gauntlets, horn carriage and elbows become more exposed to the judges. Where as, if you have dark pants and dark shoes, you are less exposed to the judges.

Changes to uniforms will often affect a corps more, though, because many times you are exposing things to the judges that your staff has never had to clean before, or at least not as much. If you've consistently had high individual marching scores with dark pants year after year, and one year you switch to white pants out of nowhere, not only will your feet be more exposed, but your staff will also not be sure how to fix this completely, as they haven't dealt with this problem in years. Does SCV 05 ring any bells?

[skajerk]

a bit off topic, but why do corps feel the need to change uniform styles so often. In my opinion most coprps have lost their identity. In many cases (with the exception of BAC and HNC) if they didn't announce which corps was on the field I would have no idea who was competing. Plus it seems like an enormous waste of money.

Which is why Mason said Madison is making the changes they are, and I for one am very happy about it.

As far as visual score in a show, I'm sure SCV's tunnel/uni change in 1985-86 made a difference. How could it not? Still one of my favorite visuals to this day. 1985 Freelancers... not so much.

[AlexL]

I disagree. I think the 07 corps was phenomenally better than the 06 corps, and the pants held them back. They had the most exposed feet in DCI that year. I personally feel that if they had their current pants in 2007, they would have beaten out Spirit to make finals.

I wont argue that the pants didnt help in 07, nor will i argue that they were much better from 06 to 07. They were miles better in 07. With how close it was all the way up til the end, even a minor score change from changing the pants wouldve given them that edge to make finals, you're absolutely right on that.

[MikeN]

I think the uniform *does* make a difference, but only in broad terms.

For instance, the Cavaliers - the white hats, wings and gauntlets (and short upper jacket) draw attention at stands / box level to the upper bodies of the performers, and their marching style (and drill) accent that. The uniform plays into it.

For the Blue Devils, I think the switch to white plumes (and even the white-inside drop sash) did a world of good in terms of bringing definition to their forms.

Phantom's all-white I think actually gains them a bit of slack in scoring - we're not talking like a 14.0 instead of a 13.0 or anything - but I think that the fact that everything they do is completely exposed gains them some sympathy from visual judges.

In examples like that, I think the uniform does make a difference - it (along with the drill and marching technique) can make similar programs come off quite differently. That said, I do *not* think that, for instance, BK's 2000-2007 uniforms to their 2008-2009 unis make any difference - I think the subtleties really don't matter. Only the broad pattern.

Mike