Could the new pre-show rule lead to woodwinds?

[zachariaswmb]

Singing is not an instrument class. My statement still stands.

So, I normally don't chime in on arguments like this, but I'd just like to point out that the human voice is not just AN instrument, it is The Original Instrument. So, agree or disagree with Mike, but he does have a valid point there.

As far as hornline size growing out of control and being difficult to clean if size restrictions were abolished, I see it as this: Top corps already look to places other than auditions because they can't find people with the skill and/or determination it takes to hack it. If size restrictions go away, that doesn't mean that all of those people who couldn't make the grade will suddenly be able to perform at the quality that is required. I don't see corps caption heads letting down their standards of quality for greater numbers, either. Though my experience is with hornlines, I'm going to assume that this applies to other sections of the corps as well.

[corps-mudgeon]

Ergo, it's different and thus adds variety.

There are comments after comments by people who say that every rule change becomes mandatory...hence no variety.

With no limits on what can be used, there is no need to adhere to one standard instrumentation. HS Bands today compete with all sorts of combinations.

IMO, this is the crux of the debate about adding new means of generating "music." While I will not call your point of view absurd, I frankly find it mystifying. HS bands may compete with all sorts of combinations, but I see very little variation, and the little that is present is generally driven by budget more than by vision. In my corner of the world, I have never seen a brass- and percussion-only HS band (with or without amplification).

Insisting on adding more options for making noise to drum corps seems selfish to me because that paradigm is already widely available and is done very well in many instances. You like the variety of instrumentation in a a HS band (as do I), but do not appear to value the brass- and percussion-only combination of instrumentation as highly as those of us who debate you. Without trying to put words in your mouth, diminishment of the number of brass- and percussion-only shows appears not to be a loss for you, whereas it is a loss for us. As long as you do not acknowledge it as a loss for us, then the debate continues. You can keep saying that different toppings for ice cream makes dessert better for everyone, but I like my vanilla ice cream plain, the more of it the better, and nothing's going to change that.

[MikeD]

IMO, this is the crux of the debate about adding new means of generating "music." While I will not call your point of view absurd, I frankly find it mystifying. HS bands may compete with all sorts of combinations, but I see very little variation, and the little that is present is generally driven by budget more than by vision. In my corner of the world, I have never seen a brass- and percussion-only HS band (with or without amplification).

I have seen and judged bands with all sorts of combinations of instruments, inc brass/percussion only in a few instances.

I'm sure in some cases the combinations are driven by who wants to march at the school...that's what happens with the band I teach and write for. But..we also make artistic choices for using this or that, such as the English horn I used in 2008 as a featured soloist.

Insisting on adding more options for making noise to drum corps seems selfish to me because that paradigm is already widely available and is done very well in many instances. You like the variety of instrumentation in a a HS band (as do I), but do not appear to value the brass- and percussion-only combination of instrumentation as highly as those of us who debate you. Without trying to put words in your mouth, diminishment of the number of brass- and percussion-only shows appears not to be a loss for you, whereas it is a loss for us. As long as you do not acknowledge it as a loss for us, then the debate continues. You can keep saying that different toppings for ice cream makes dessert better for everyone, but I like my vanilla ice cream plain, the more of it the better, and nothing's going to change that.

You are certainly free to like what you like, as am I. As your opinion is not driven by what I want, neither is mine driven by what you want.

[Jeff Ream]

Well, that would be up to each corps to field whatever it wants. If they think they can clean the ensemble enough, than that would be their choice.

of course they have the "option" Mike. it's called perceptiuon which you seem to conveniently forget time and time again. to not have all the newest toys means you'renot with it, old fashioned, stuck in the mud.

and if that fact were not true, people would still be marching keyboards and tympani, and half the corps wouldn't plug in. some may still be on G bugles.

you can try to justify it any way you want, but deep down inside you know it's true. you've been around drum corps long enough

[corps-mudgeon]

You are certainly free to like what you like, as am I. As your opinion is not driven by what I want, neither is mine driven by what you want.

We can agree on this. Which basically means that you support co-opting the things I like and therefore me getting less of what I want.

I have never suggested that the "anything goes" part of the music world should be restricted and resent having this small circumscribed part be changed to be the same as what can be found elsewhere. I resent people either not comprending this simple concept or being so selfish as to not care.

Edited February 10, 2010 by corps-mudgeon

[dans]

of course they have the "option" Mike. it's called perceptiuon which you seem to conveniently forget time and time again. to not have all the newest toys means you'renot with it, old fashioned, stuck in the mud.

and if that fact were not true, people would still be marching keyboards and tympani, and half the corps wouldn't plug in. some may still be on G bugles.

you can try to justify it any way you want, but deep down inside you know it's true. you've been around drum corps long enough

Marching keyboards & tympani aren't utilized anymore because it doesn't make sense for physical and projection reasons, not because its old fashioned. Corps starting using amps for projection and technique issues, not for the fear of being perceived as old fashioned. Corps switched from G bugles because the new ones sound better, not for the fear of being perceived as old fachioned.

[MikeD]

of course they have the "option" Mike. it's called perceptiuon which you seem to conveniently forget time and time again. to not have all the newest toys means you'renot with it, old fashioned, stuck in the mud.

and if that fact were not true, people would still be marching keyboards and tympani, and half the corps wouldn't plug in. some may still be on G bugles.

Corps don't use marching bells any xylos, and marching timpani...for they way they sound and have to be written for. Not to mention trying to march modern drill with them. Are you really going to try and say that a competitive corps would be lugging around those instruments if they thought it was OK????

G horns are gone because Bb/F sound better and have a ready-made after-market numbering in the thousands...that market permits corps to roll over their horns and stay current with improvements being made by the manufacturers.

[jjeffeory]

Corps don't use marching bells any xylos, and marching timpani...for they way they sound and have to be written for. Not to mention trying to march modern drill with them. Are you really going to try and say that a competitive corps would be lugging around those instruments if they thought it was OK????

G horns are gone because Bb/F sound better and have a ready-made after-market numbering in the thousands...that market permits corps to roll over their horns and stay current with improvements being made by the manufacturers.

G horns are gone because Bb/F horns have a ready made after market and it is easier on the manufacturers to tool for only 1 type of horn rather two. This has nothing to do with the quality of the sound of one group of instruments over another. THAT is simply the hot button issue that is talked about on here. Sorry, but it's simple economics. It's not SUBJECTIVE b.s. uttered here.

[Richard]

I have seen and judged bands with all sorts of combinations of instruments, inc brass/percussion only in a few instances.

I'm sure in some cases the combinations are driven by who wants to march at the school...that's what happens with the band I teach and write for. But..we also make artistic choices for using this or that, such as the English horn I used in 2008 as a featured soloist.

I wish the band I taught could field all brass, maybe with some saxes. The "texture" and "timbre" that you'd lose with cutting flutes and clarinets is relatively inconsequential compared to the volume and contrast you can produce per marching member with a line of all brass. There's two issues: 1. Kids come up through middle school playing flute and they like it and 2. purchasing a full brass line is WAY out of the band's budget.

In smaller bands, you can generate SO much more effect with a brass-dominant line. I think a lot of band directors would field fall mini-drum corps if it was feasible.

[MikeD]

I wish the band I taught could field all brass, maybe with some saxes. The "texture" and "timbre" that you'd lose with cutting flutes and clarinets is relatively inconsequential compared to the volume and contrast you can produce per marching member with a line of all brass. There's two issues: 1. Kids come up through middle school playing flute and they like it and 2. purchasing a full brass line is WAY out of the band's budget.

In smaller bands, you can generate SO much more effect with a brass-dominant line. I think a lot of band directors would field fall mini-drum corps if it was feasible.

I hope they would not. WW can enhance the sound of a small band very well. If a kid wants to switch, fine. In our district, and many here in NJ, MB is a total after school activity. I'd rather not have kids switching from clarinet and/or flute to brass after school while continuing their concert instrument during the day. Plus, having time to perfect either will suffer given the many demands on their time during the school year. How much time can they give to practicing their primary instrument? Now they'd have to find time for two?