Who will blink first - G7 or S(sweet)16?

[Bruckner8]

Oh boy, now you are REALLY reaching for straws here, MikeD in your attempt to absolve DCI from any significant role in the loss of Corps under their watch. Here you are saying that Corps that did not join DCI in the early 70's are not the responsibility of DCI for their collapse. Well, who said DCI should be blamed for such non membership Corps ? Not me. Not anyone. The vast amount of these Corps, approx.95% of them, NEVER went on tour. They were mostly parade Corps. They were local Corps who had no interest in competing beyond their local circuits, nor in traveling out of the region with any degree of regularity. Thus, joining DCI had no interest for them. What they soon found out however was that the formation of DCI would have a direct impact on them because their local circuits lost the bigger Corps to DCI and quickly those little Corps found that the local circuits died. When the circuits died, they died. That said, since this was an indirect result, I could see fit to cut DCI some slack for the significant role in the loss of most of these local parade and local competition units folding over time. However, the NATIONAL touring Corps that joined up with DCI is another matter altogether. There have been dozens and dozens of THESE Corps that folded. DCI DOES have some degree of responsibility in the loss of these Corps, as it was the measures and policiies that were adopted here that played a role in their demise, imo. I find it odd that some people want to give full credit to DCI for things that went well, but when things did not go well under DCI's watch , well, it was " because of outside pressures ".... ' the econony".... the Churches.... the Veterans organizations.... you name it..... EXCEPT for DCI having a role with THAT. How convenient... and so wrong.

OK, so even BITD, the "smaller local" corps owed their existences to the "bigger local" corps?

When I see old corps memorabilia about "VFW champion" I chuckle to myself "lol, so what? The competition was only between 2-3 corps (even if 25 corps were there), and never against other nationally strong corps." In order to get one undisputed champion, you have to go up against all other corps. The next natural thing to think to yourself is "Hmm, with more-competitive shows, more people will show up to see the other awesome corps!"

The G7 thing is just another implementation of that logic....give the people more ice cream.

The entire point of the birth of DCI was to make it possible to crown one undisputed champion. The founders assumed the local stuff would still happen, and that everyone would be "home" for their 4th of July parades! But a funny thing happened: Local show promoters started realizing that the shows only drew crowds if the other exotic corps showed up. People from the East WANTED to see SCV and BD, especially since they practically traded DCI championships BITD. Consequently, the directors would talk about ways to make that happen (ie, to make it possible for West corps to tour earlier). Also, since the 90s, East corps have traveled out West in the early season.

It's all driven by what people want. Purely market-driven, yes, money.

Once again, I have no sympathy for corps that fold because the audience has decided they don't want to watch them anymore (at a certain price). This is determined in the free market by 1) kids not showing up to audition, 2) Corporate $$ not being donated, 3) Volunteers not wanting to be involved anymore, 4) Souvie sales diminishing, etc etc...why does that happen? ANS: Because something about the product is not worth supporting anymore, and people choose to put their resources elsewhere...and the corps folds.

Yet the "Save the Corps" mantra in these threads blames everything except the source. Maddening.

[Stu]

It's all driven by what people want. Purely market-driven, yes, money.

Once again, I have no sympathy for corps that fold because the audience has decided they don't want to watch them anymore (at a certain price). This is determined in the free market by 1) kids not showing up to audition, 2) Corporate $$ not being donated, 3) Volunteers not wanting to be involved anymore, 4) Souvie sales diminishing, etc etc...why does that happen? ANS: Because something about the product is not worth supporting anymore, and people choose to put their resources elsewhere...and the corps folds.

Yet the "Save the Corps" mantra in these threads blames everything except the source. Maddening.

Attended the Open Class show finals week in Michigan City, IN. The place is packed and the crowd roars! Apparently you were not there at WC Finals when the Troopers took the field on Saturday; the place was packed and the crowd roared! Where are you getting your information that kids are not showing up at these corps' for auditions or corporate sponsors are not helping lower corps'? The Troopers are one onf the most financially sound corps' while Phantom Regiment is still in the red and nearly had to liquidate their assets a few years back! Music City has a large influx of cash from the company The Band Hall! Kids are auditioning all over the country for OC corps'! And you say that you have no sympathy when the G7 want to cut these units off at the knees!!!!

Edited June 11, 2010 by Stu

[Bruckner8]

Attended the Open Class show finals week in Michigan City, IN. The place is packed and the crowd roars! Apparently you were not there at WC Finals when the Troopers took the field on Saturday; the place was packed and the crowd roared! Where are you getting your information that kids are not showing up at these corps' for auditions or corporate sponsors are not helping lower corps'? The Troopers are one onf the most financially sound corps' while Phantom Regiment is still in the red and nearly had to liquidate their assets a few years back! Music City has a large influx of cash from the company The Band Hall! Kids are auditioning all over the country for OC corps'! And you say that you have no sympathy when the G7 want to cut these units off at the knees!!!!

Awesome! Then Open Class doesn't need the G7.

So what's the issue again? Why do we care if G7 does their own thing (for a few shows per year)?

Obviously, if a corps is existing, then it hasn't folded.

What's your point?

Oh yeah...you get back to it in your last sentence...by again admitting that the OC DOES need the G7...please make up your mind.

[BRASSO]

OK, so even BITD, the "smaller local" corps owed their existences to the "bigger local" corps?

When I see old corps memorabilia about "VFW champion" I chuckle to myself "lol, so what? The competition was only between 2-3 corps (even if 25 corps were there), and never against other nationally strong corps." In order to get one undisputed champion, you have to go up against all other corps. The next natural thing to think to yourself is "Hmm, with more-competitive shows, more people will show up to see the other awesome corps!"

The G7 thing is just another implementation of that logic....give the people more ice cream.

The entire point of the birth of DCI was to make it possible to crown one undisputed champion. The founders assumed the local stuff would still happen, and that everyone would be "home" for their 4th of July parades! But a funny thing happened: Local show promoters started realizing that the shows only drew crowds if the other exotic corps showed up. People from the East WANTED to see SCV and BD, especially since they practically traded DCI championships BITD. Consequently, the directors would talk about ways to make that happen (ie, to make it possible for West corps to tour earlier). Also, since the 90s, East corps have traveled out West in the early season.

It's all driven by what people want. Purely market-driven, yes, money.

Once again, I have no sympathy for corps that fold because the audience has decided they don't want to watch them anymore (at a certain price). This is determined in the free market by 1) kids not showing up to audition, 2) Corporate $$ not being donated, 3) Volunteers not wanting to be involved anymore, 4) Souvie sales diminishing, etc etc...why does that happen? ANS: Because something about the product is not worth supporting anymore, and people choose to put their resources elsewhere...and the corps folds.

Yet the "Save the Corps" mantra in these threads blames everything except the source. Maddening.

Ironically, I agree with the underlying premise of yours. I have no problem at all if the G-7 left DCI and go out and either make a go of it, or fail. I believe that their scheme is nether test marketed properly to determine the financial numbers, nor well planned from a number of different perspectives. It's all pie in the sky stuff actually.. They HAVE no financial numbers in their plan. They state in the proposal that they'll " work the details out later, as they proceed ". Sure, ok. My beef is that they want to reshape DCI to alter it's fundamental philosophies that have guided the activity for over 30 years now. They want to create a permanent group slotting system within the World Class Division, double their own voting privleges, strip other Corps of their current votes, slice up revenues to provide themselves a bigger percentage, elect the judges themselves for their little cabal of Corps, select better competition sites, better time schedules, better marketing for themselves, kill off the Open Class Corps, and other Corps they said ( quote ) "provide no real service ", alter in a radical way the judging captions and instrumentation, among oter things, and do this all behind closed doors with no input whatsoever from their other Corps in the DCI " fraternity ". Your failure to see the difference between the early formation of DCI with it's original charter and what is happening with this G-7 proposal tells me that either you do not understand the guiding principles and philosophies that guided the DCI Corps in the beginning, or you have not throughly read and studied the G-7 proposal in depth to see that the same people that have brought the activity to the brink of ruin with their previous failed proposals are now blaming DCI and the lower placing Corps for the precarious situation that the Drum Corps movement finds itself in. Their gall is breathtaking it it's brazenness. This is a ruinous agenda, embarked upon when there are remaining Drum Corps still trying to carry the torch for the activity while this G-7 cabal is hell bent on blowing out the flame altogether with this divisive, selfish and greedy scheme of theirs. I'm all for the strong surviving. I'm all for making money. I 'm not for assaulting the others in the process. We're told that it's not the lower Corps that people want to see, it's the " TOP ACT " Corps. Well here's a news flash : people don't really want to see the " TOP ACTS " of DCI like they used too at one time. Attendance is down. And who's fault is that ? The Open Class Corps ? The non G-7 Corps ? Or the ones who brought us the current shows, toys, etc ? This is not fair and open competition either, and that's another problem with this scheme of theirs. This is an attempt to rig the system, pure and simple. This is unprecedented in my view in the Drum Corps activity, and this is what you appear to not quite grasp just yet.

Edited June 11, 2010 by BRASSO

[Stu]

Awesome! Then Open Class doesn't need the G7.

So what's the issue again? Why do we care if G7 does their own thing (for a few shows per year)?

Obviously, if a corps is existing, then it hasn't folded.

What's your point?

Oh yeah...you get back to it in your last sentence...by again admitting that the OC DOES need the G7...please make up your mind.

Because by chosing to be a part of an overall "charitable non-profit organization" called DCI, the G7 made a strict commitment and promise to help out "all" corps' within that organization. DCI is an organization that facilitates venues for all DCI corps; for example DCI facilitated the venue for the OC corps at Michigan City. The G7 want to cut out all OC corps from DCI as well as cut out all DCI funding for those OC venues while still having DCI provide venues for the G7. Without that venue support, the OC corps have no place to go and they cannot afford to both fund their corps and fund contest venues. It would be like multiple churches joining the "council of churches" with some being mega-churces and some being small community churches. No problem with that occuring. However, the problem arises when the mega-churches in the council begin dumping on the less fortunate churches in that same council who need assistance. What is it about "caritable" that you do not understand!?! If the G7 want to leave, they can do what they want when they want; but as long as they are a member of DCI, which is by definition a "charitable non-profit organization" they should be held accountable to their agreement to be "charitable" to all others within the organization!

Edited June 11, 2010 by Stu

[Bruckner8]

Ironically, I agree with the underlying premise of yours. I have no problem at all if the G-7 left DCI and go out and either make a go of it, or fail. I believe that their scheme is nether test marketed properly to determine the financial numbers, nor well planned from a number of different perspectives. It's all pie in the sky stuff actually.. They HAVE no financial numbers in their plan. They state in the proposal that they'll " work the details out later, as they proceed ". Sure, ok. My beef is that they want to reshape DCI to alter it's fundamental philosophies that have guided the activity for over 30 years now. They want to create a permanent group slotting system within the World Class Division, double their own voting privleges, strip other Corps of their current votes, slice up revenues to provide themselves a bigger percentage, elect the judges themselves for their little cabal of Corps, select better competition sites, better time schedules, better marketing for themselves, kill off the Open Class Corps, and other Corps they said ( quote ) "provide no real service ", alter in a radical way the judging captions and instrumentation, among oter things, and do this all behind closed doors with no input whatsoever from their other Corps in the DCI " fraternity ". Your failure to see the difference between the early formation of DCI with it's original charter and what is happening with this G-7 proposal tells me that either you do not understand the guiding principles and philosophies that guided the DCI Corps in the beginning, or you have not throughly read and studied the G-7 proposal in depth to see that the same people that have brought the activity to the brink of ruin with their previous failed proposals are now blaming DCI and the lower placing Corps for the precarious situation that the Drum Corps movement finds itself in. Their gall is breathtaking it it's brazenness. This is a ruinous agenda, embarked upon when there are remaining Drum Corps still trying to carry the torch for the activity while this G-7 cabal is hell bent on blowing out the flame altogether with this divisive, selfish and greedy scheme of theirs. I'm all for the strong surviving. I'm all for making money. I 'm not for assaulting the others in the process. We're told that it's not the lower Corps that people want to see, it's the " TOP ACT " Corps. Well here's a news flash : people don't really want to see the " TOP ACTS " of DCI like they used too at one time. Attendance is down. And who's fault is that ? The Open Class Corps ? The non G-7 Corps ? Or the ones who brought us the current shows, toys, etc ? This is not fair and open competition either, and that's another problem with this scheme of theirs. This is an attempt to rig the system, pure and simple. This is unprecedented in my view in the Drum Corps activity, and this is what you appear to not quite grasp just yet.

All good stuff, thank you.

<<This is a ruinous agenda, >>

Then DCI was also a ruinous agenda (as most people have claimed anyway! You know what I mean...all of the talk about "before DCI there were 1,000,000 corps. now there are 23" BS)

So, DCI was bad for "all of drum corps," right?

And the G7 thing will be its certain demise, right?

OK then, let them eat cake.

(No one knows what will happen. But the G7 people want to try something different. Bring it on.)

[BRASSO]

All good stuff, thank you.

<<This is a ruinous agenda, >>

Then DCI was also a ruinous agenda (as most people have claimed anyway! You know what I mean...all of the talk about "before DCI there were 1,000,000 corps. now there are 23" BS)

So, DCI was bad for "all of drum corps," right?

And the G7 thing will be its certain demise, right?

OK then, let them eat cake.

(No one knows what will happen. But the G7 people want to try something different. Bring it on.)

No, lets not " bring it on " ( G-7 proposal ) Lets do this in a fair manner. After the cabal come out from their secret closed door meetings, then present the proposal, there is discussion, there is then a vote, and we abide by the vote. My prediction is that the G-7 proposal is DOA when put to a DCI membership vote. If I'm right, then the G-7 will have to decide to bury their hatchet or move on out of the teepee, and go off the reservation all by themselves. Either way, I'm ok with it. I hope they decide to stay. If not, we smoke the final peace pipe then it's adios amigos, and off they go.

Edited June 11, 2010 by BRASSO

[Rochester New York]

Then DCI was also a ruinous agenda (as most people have claimed anyway! You know what I mean...all of the talk about "before DCI there were 1,000,000 corps. now there are 23" BS)

So, DCI was bad for "all of drum corps," right?

And the G7 thing will be its certain demise, right?

OK then, let them eat cake.

(No one knows what will happen. But the G7 people want to try something different. Bring it on.)

So, you're essentially saying that two wrongs will make a right?

[JimF-LowBari]

The entire point of the birth of DCI was to make it possible to crown one undisputed champion.

Thought main reason for start of DCI was to give the corps themselves more control over the rules that controlled corps judging. This allowed a standard set of rules and allowed corps to move away from the military aspects and be more GE oriented. Also to give the corps a more equitable amount of the prize money. IOW corps were tired of being the "side show" at VFW and AL conventions. Never heard of the Combine folks saying "Yeah lets have a show so everyone can compete". Especially with the US Open (think this was pre 1972), World Open and ye olde Dream (not an Open but sponsorship didn't matter).

Big difference between G7 and start of DCI is corps had the option of joining DCI or not. Here the G7 decides who may or may not be with them. Your corps could win DCI and still not be allowed to join the G7 group.

Edited June 11, 2010 by JimF-LowBari

[Bruckner8]

So, you're essentially saying that two wrongs will make a right?

No, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the G7 haters. All of the sudden, DCI is wonderful. (b/c the top corps think it's broken.)