Incomplete Shows

[TrainWreck]

Each year we read about all of the things that drum corps teaches kids (which includes those of us on the board that grew up in drum corps). Hard work, learning to work with others, setting goals and achieving them.

Apparently, after reviewing the thread, meeting a schedule that's known months in advance is not something that is strived for.

Some posters have decided to attack me (they don't know me) yet they can't attack my position. So they get no direct response.

Some posters equate show rewrites to incomplete shows. You can't argue with somebody who does not understand my argument.

Here's a couple of quotes to read:

Tickets for this event range from $65-$25 with groups of 20 or more reduced to $20 in the Super sections.

The $65 Super Premium tickets include a VIP parking pass and buffet dinner.

Assume you paid this much in California reading this type of advertisement off of DCI's web-site.

You can honestly sit there and pontificate your point of view (opposite of mine) that it's perfectly acceptable to want to spend this kind of money to go and see a drum corps show knowing one or more shows are not complete? Really?

If that's not true why would any of you expect this to be true for a show in California?

Another tidbit from DCI's site:

Though the 2010 Drum Corps International Tour officially kicked off on June 18, the fun has only just begun for many of the West Coast corps that got their competitive start more than a week later.

Well - competitive start for some. Others, we just won't say they are not quite yet ready. 9 months after auditions.

And even an advertisement:

f you missed these California shows, you can still satisfy your West Coast drum corps Jones with on demand video playback of the Stanford show on the Fan Network. Subscriptions starting at $39 will give you access to on demand videos as well as more than 15 other DCI Tour events and soon-to-come audio performance downloads.

I'm sorry, it says if you missed the show you can spend money to watch the show. I see no mention of if you wish to watch incomplete corps shows.

Maybe I'm making a big deal about this. So be it. Sure seems quite a few people have read this thread, so I hit a nerve somewhere.

Edited July 5, 2010 by TrainWreck

[perc2100]

Maybe it’s because I currently direct musical theatre that I share the same philosophy. I could never imagine going on stage before the show and announcing, “The final scene is a little weak, so we are going to not perform it tonight. Please purchase a ticket for tomorrow nights performance and it should

And herein lies the problem: too many people think that drum corps should be all things to all people. "I don't like blue devils show design, so I want them to change and become exactly what I want." "a certain situation is perfect for one entertainment genre, so naturally it would be perfect for drum corps." "a specific judging philosophy works great for ice skating, so obviously it would be great for drum corps."

I've got news for you: just because something works for one entertainment genre doesn't mean it should be adapted to drum corps. Drum corps, believe it or not oldskl, is vastly different logistically and structurally from musical theater. Wha t works for you and your profession doesn't necessarily mean it'll work for drum corps.

[soccerguy315]

Look at scores early and late season. What makes you think that the incomplete shows are not factored in to their scores, esp if partially performed (e.g. just the music, or no guard work)?

because the scores don't take a noticeable jump when the ending is added in, that I have seen.

Vanguard scored a 14.8 in percussion on 6/27. Without a closer. Do you think the percussion judge took into account that the show wasn't finished? I don't. If they are missing 2 minutes of their show, that is roughly 18% of their show. If the judges were adjusting the scores accordingly, as you claim might be happening, then this percussion judge gave Vanguard the equivalent of an 18/20 (90% of the available points, 14.8 / 16.4)

Do you think SCV deserves an 18 in drums on June 27th?

IMO, what should actually happen is that the judge thinks SCV deserves a 14.8, but they are missing 18% of their show, so the number he gives them is a 12.1 (14.8 * 82% completion).

[DrinkinOuttaCups]

EDIT: Don't mind me, I'm just an idiot.

Edited July 5, 2010 by BugleBand

[TrainWreck]

IMO, what should actually happen is that the judge thinks SCV deserves a 14.8, but they are missing 18% of their show, so the number he gives them is a 12.1 (14.8 * 82% completion).

What should happen is they go on in exhibition or prior to the official start of the show and receive no appearance fees.

[DrinkinOuttaCups]

What should happen is they go on in exhibition or prior to the official start of the show and receive no appearance fees.

So you're suggesting taking money away from non-profit organizations that basically need it to survive. Is that what you're saying? I think that's what you're saying.

[perc2100]

Apparently, after reviewing the thread, meeting a schedule that's known months in advance is not something that is strived for.

Some posters have decided to attack me (they don't know me) yet they can't attack my position. So they get no direct response.

Question: did you read any of the responses, or did you just kind of gloss over them? I posted some of the philosophies/reasons why corps don't complete their show before their first show. I mentioned that these philosophies were from staff members who have won multiple DCI World Championships, as well as multiple DCI High Visual awards: i.e. these are philosophies from staff members who have had quite a bit of success over the last decade or more. Their reasoning is valid, and apparently everyone involved with drum corps from an administrative level agrees, or there would be different rules and philosophies in place to change things. The first sentence above from you that is bolded, frankly, is naive rhetoric. While sometimes shows are incomplete due to staff error (picked show too late and got a late start designing, for example), many times teaching the show is done on a VERY strategic level. While your reasoning is slanted bias, you can also argue that membership learn that it's important to do things CORRECTLY the first time, and not do anything half-hearted: did you never learn in high school or college, or other aspects of the real world how wrong it is to cram for things (big projects, exam studying, etc)? Besides, chances are good that staffers actually DO have a pretty strict schedule that they stick to, even if it doesn't coincide with your personal desire to see an entire production complete after about five full weeks of rehearsal.

You can honestly sit there and pontificate your point of view (opposite of mine) that it's perfectly acceptable to want to spend this kind of money to go and see a drum corps show knowing one or more shows are not complete? Really?

If that's not true why would any of you expect this to be true for a show in California?

Yes, I think it's acceptable to spend money to go to a show even if some corps' productions are incomplete. FWIW, I DO live in CA, and I don't think I've ever paid more than $20 for an early season show. And yes, I spent that money on tickets knowing that SCV didn't have a complete show, and honestly I loved what they had on the field, and looked forward to seeing them again later in the season to see how the show developed. Perhaps there's something to THAT strategy: don't come out with a 100% complete show and leave the audience wanting more. Oddly enough, there are typically a few shows every year that I actually don't like early season when the show is incomplete, and my thought process is, "well, I'm not a big fan but there are a few interesting things. I'll catch it again in a few weeks when they're done and give it another shot." That marketing works for some fans.

Well - competitive start for some. Others, we just won't say they are not quite yet ready. 9 months after auditions.

1) if a corps takes the field in competition, by definition they started competitively, finished show or not

2) I don't know if you ever marched drum corps. If not, it might surprise you to know that immediately following auditions the corps DOES NOT learn the entire show. It actually takes time to first design the show, write the horn book, right the drum book after the horn book, chart out music so the drill designer knows where all of the phrases are, write the drill, learn the music well enough to play it memorized with correct phrasing, dynamics, etc, learn the drill, learn how to play the music while marching drill, write the guard staging, write the guard work, ensemble the entire thing with music + marching + guard work. That's movement 1, maybe 2 minutes of show. Repeat maybe five times. It's a lengthy process that, believe it or not, isn't completed in February.

I'm sorry, it says if you missed the show you can spend money to watch the show. I see no mention of if you wish to watch incomplete corps shows.

Maybe I'm making a big deal about this. So be it. Sure seems quite a few people have read this thread, so I hit a nerve somewhere.

Yes, I think you are making a big deal out of this, and yes I think you are refusing to even entertain the thought of WHY this is the way it is, and focusing instead on what you WANT. Like I said, obviously all of us wish to see a finished, clean product the first show of the season: logic dictates otherwise, unfortunately. While the majority of fans probably are disappointed that they saw SCV's show incomplete July 2 (don't know why I keep using them as an example: maybe because so many others have as well? Either way, I have zero beaf with Vanguard and love 'em), I would be that the majority of fans who paid to see them understand the situation and don't feel ripped off that they left the last 90 seconds or so off the performance.

Two more thoughts:

1) if you think DCI is bad, go to a WGI percussion show in February: literally just about everyone has MAYBE three or four minutes on the floor, with many of the lower class groups having 90 seconds or so

2) did you actually pay to go to a show this year where a corps was blatantly not done? If not, you're really just arguing to argue, right: not because you feel personally wronged, but just for arguments sake. Personally, I paid for Fan Network, and I did stream SCV's show last weekend. While that's not quite the same as paying for the live show, I did at least spend money to watch the performance via Fan Network and as a paying customer I am satisfied with the product and look forward to the next one.

[TrainWreck]

So you're suggesting taking money away from non-profit organizations that basically need it to survive. Is that what you're saying? I think that's what you're saying.

First off, can't take away something they never had. So your question makes no sense to me.

Secondly, if they need that money to survive, that implies they are expecting payment for something they signed up to do. Namely perform their show. It's an appearance fee for performing.

Where did this appearance fee come from? Perhaps the people who's butts are in the seats that paid money for the tickets to see a drum corps show?

Considering that the problem is confined to a minimum number of corps, why is nobody asking how other corps are able to meet their schedules on time and some are not? Yet those that are not able to meet their commitment, it's not a problem for some people?

Edited July 5, 2010 by TrainWreck

[perc2100]

So you're suggesting taking money away from non-profit organizations that basically need it to survive. Is that what you're saying? I think that's what you're saying.

I think what he's saying is, "I choose to ignore all logical arguments in this manner and instead defer to a nonsense solution that really is good for absolutely no one."

[perc2100]

Considering that the problem is confined to a minimum number of corps, why is nobody asking how other corps are able to meet their schedules on time and some are not? Yet those that are not able to meet their commitment, it's not a problem for some people?

I cut that first part because it makes no sense.

This part, though, is kind of an interesting point, even if the answer is blatantly obvious: not all situations work for everyone. If we are talking about a "minimum number of corps," then it really is not even an issue, is it? I think the reality is that some corps are better at "hiding" their incomplete designs early season than others, and you can argue that if a corps spends a bunch of time learning drill and sometimes music that the staff has zero intentions of using as a final product, then much time was wasted. Some of you blowing this WAY out of proportion kind of give off the idea that a corps is going out and performing five minutes of their show and that's it: we're seriously talking about corps still performing for about ten minutes or so, and leaving off 60-90 seconds. That's still fulfilling a performance commitment, and probably still qualifies as the minimum required performance time.