Open-Class ONLY shows?

[audiodb]

It is not a rosy as you present.

Never said it was rosy.

If you check the DCI schedule you will find 110 total shows around the nation prior to Championships. A very small fraction of those shows are OC only, which has already been pointed out in this thread. DCI does have a rule that local OC corps cannot be locked out of local shows in their immediate area, therefore the Colt Cadets get to automatically compete in the one or two shows near their area, Music City gets to automatically compete in their one or two area shows, and that accounts for those four hour drives to shows that you mentioned. And, the small number of actual WC corps on the west coast causes a lot of west coast shows that would only have BD and SCV to have some out of area west coast OC corps competing to fill in the docket. Lastly, if it were not for Revolution taking a complete National Tour starting in June, many of the rest of the shows around the country would be WC only.

I think there are only four shows with Revolution as lone open-class entrant. One of them is San Antonio, where Revo and SCVC are inexplicably assigned to different days. But the other three simply don't have any open-class corps within hundreds of miles.

So if you look closer, most OC corps are charging the thousands of dollars in dues, about the same as the upper level WC corps, but these OC corps across the nation are only competing on average in just five or six shows prior to Championships.

Oh, really?

7th Regiment 10

Blue Devils B 12

Blue Saints 11

Colt Cadets 15

Forte 9

Genesis 7

Legends 19

Music City 8

Oregon Crusaders 10

Racine Scouts 15

Raiders 7

Revolution 19

Spartans 10

Spirit of New Jersey 6

Stentors 10

Strangnas 5

Velvet Knights 16

Average number of pre-championship shows for Indy-bound open class corps is 11.1. That's double what you stated.

It costs a million dollars plus to create a single corps that can provide youth with decent food, decent transportation, decent housing, decent instruments, and decent staff. And you are advocating building new corps across the country how?

This number is a little off too. Startup corps can be done for less than that amount....for that matter, a limited tour greatly reduces the food, transportation and housing requirements.

But to answer your question....there are many ways "how" DCI can foster growth in number of corps. Ultimately, though, we need one thing DCI doesn't have....adults to run the corps. IMO, DCI should start a campaign to recruit adults for corps administration and support, and that mentoring program Blue Stars have should be implemented by as many other corps as....well, all of them. There are so many college grads looking for work....hands-on experience with tour logistics and finance, even on a volunteer basis, might be the edge they need in a tough job market. It's a win-win for the young adults and the corps.

Go back to DCW, DCM. And DCE by mandating regional only first tours for "all" corps, even the WC corps, and only allow national tours to occur late in the season.

As much as I would like to see a renewed focus on regions, I suspect that "mandating" such behavior in that manner would cause more problems than it would solve.

[Stu]

Average number of pre-championship shows for Indy-bound open class corps is 11.1 ...

Ok, an average of 11.1 shows. Wow, paying thousands of dollars in dues and transportation costs to and from aduitions and rehearsals from November to May; and spending all of those weeks at move ins in June; just to perform at an average of 11 shows (which by the way means that half the corps are performing less than 11 shows). Sounds like a really great deal to me!

This number is a little off too. Startup corps can be done for less than that amount....for that matter, a limited tour greatly reduces the food, transportation and housing requirements.

A little off ... maybe; but not by much. Any competent Board of Directors and Corps Director starting up a corps to compete in DCI should plan on raising enough capital to purchase equipment in great shape, buy good quality food, provide good quality housing for camps as well as tour sites, lease good quality transportation (with th need to pay for fuel), hire good quality staff, secure excellent insurance, et al "prior" to holding any initial auditions. That is where I got such a high start up figure. A Board that relies on "performer dues" to pay for a bulk of the start up items and the first year tour costs is not a Board that would be running on a sound business practice.

[ajwdad]

Would you prefer Brockton, MA? Or Orlando, FL? How about Buffalo, NY? At least Indy is a more central location.

The pros and cons of a permanent championship site have been discussed in other threads, and they extend beyond the issues of open-class. However, it is my viewpoint that, based on historical trends, corps at the level we now call open-class (formerly division II/III, class A, etc.) are better served by major contests in fixed locations. Corps at that level are less likely to be financially ready to chase a moving target, and it is difficult to maintain recruiting stability while attending DCI Championships in some years and not others.

If that was the measuring stick, we wouldn't even have 12 world-class units.

First point: Freezing the championships in a single spot seems not so good for fans, and seems inherently unfair. But you are definitely entitled to your opinion. But it is not shared by any large sporting contest.. Doesn't matter where I want finals, but I would like to see them move around the country. There are lots of examples in other activities of just that. As for MAJOR contests, perhaps we can keep all the same venues, but change their order so that finals can move around. Or, we can just let Indy fans grow and tell the rest of america, like my friends that are not getting on a flight to see a DC finals, that they are just not important. Of course, all of your examples are nowhere near the west coast, and the winners (and 2nd place) from the last 2 seasons are west coast corps. And if SCVC were going to finals this year, it would likely happen again. But, with budget constraints, they are not going... Bet they would if finals were in CA.

As for the size of world class, i am not sure that really matters to me at all. What does it mean to be world vs open? If you cannot compete at a certain level, I guess that the prestige matters? I compete in a professional sport, but at the regional level. I could compete at the national level and donate my entry fee... But that does not make sense to me.

[garfield]

I did not want to bog down my post by naming all seven of the G7 along with seven OC corps. So I picked BD at random to represent the G7 and picked Revolution at random to represent th OC.

The fate of the current OC was written in stone from the start back in 1972 when the Combine formed DCI and only allowed the top twelve to have voting privileges. The A60 and A classes (predecessors of Div III and Div II) therefore had no way to ever have a chance to sway DCI matters; and they never even had a real chance to get a say in DCI matters when the eligible corps voting expansion took place; the voting expansion only applied to the Div I (now World Class) corps and the winner of Div II Div III title.

Now plug in a proposal like the G7 that threatens the entire existence of DCI. There will certainly be a temptation by the 16 other WC voting members to compromise with the G7 to save their own necks. So, what do you think those WC directors might offer up as a bargaining chip to save their own skins? Hmmmm maybe a group of corps that have no voting power anyway? I hope that does not happen; but in a dire situation it sometimes boils down to self survival. My guess is that this will end up being a 16 to 7 fight with the fate of the OC corps in the hands of 16 directors we hope are both altruistic and willing to abide by the DCI Mission Statement.

Great comment here, Stu, and exactly why G7-haters should write to the Non's and encourage them to not buckle to the elites.

[audiodb]

First point: Freezing the championships in a single spot seems not so good for fans, and seems inherently unfair. But you are definitely entitled to your opinion.

My opinion was limited to the open-class units, corps of more modest financial means who (IMO) benefit from tour patterns that don't change radically from year to year. As I alluded to earlier, there are many considerations beyond that which affect world-class corps, fans, DCI and the host cities....both pro and con.

But it is not shared by any large sporting contest..

WGI Worlds have a permanent home in Dayton, OH. BOA Grand Nationals are fixed in Indianapolis. DCA Championships stay in the four-state area where their greatest concentration of fans reside. And isn't the Little League World Series always in Williamsport, PA?

I understand that professional sports leagues move their title games around....but the teams in those leagues make money in the hundred$ of million$, such that travel is not a hardship for any of them.

As for MAJOR contests, perhaps we can keep all the same venues, but change their order so that finals can move around.

Sounds reasonable. I'm sure DCI will do this in whatever year it was that Indy is booked for finals week (think it was 2013).

Or, we can just let Indy fans grow and tell the rest of america, like my friends that are not getting on a flight to see a DC finals, that they are just not important.

(rolls eyes)

Of course, all of your examples are nowhere near the west coast, and the winners (and 2nd place) from the last 2 seasons are west coast corps. And if SCVC were going to finals this year, it would likely happen again. But, with budget constraints, they are not going... Bet they would if finals were in CA.

And did you notice that the West is the only area that has had modern-era growth at the open-class level? It is also the only area where a corps can thrive without attending championships every year. I see a connection there.

[Richard]

Ok, an average of 11.1 shows. Wow, paying thousands of dollars in dues and transportation costs to and from aduitions and rehearsals from November to May; and spending all of those weeks at move ins in June; just to perform at an average of 11 shows (which by the way means that half the corps are performing less than 11 shows). Sounds like a really great deal to me!

There's more to drum corps than just playing shows. The kids in Open Class know this more than anyone. Trust me.

A little off ... maybe; but not by much. Any competent Board of Directors and Corps Director starting up a corps to compete in DCI should plan on raising enough capital to purchase equipment in great shape, buy good quality food, provide good quality housing for camps as well as tour sites, lease good quality transportation (with th need to pay for fuel), hire good quality staff, secure excellent insurance, et al "prior" to holding any initial auditions. That is where I got such a high start up figure. A Board that relies on "performer dues" to pay for a bulk of the start up items and the first year tour costs is not a Board that would be running on a sound business practice.

If that were the case, then I would estimate that there would be no new corps ever. You have to start somewhere even if you don't have great equipment and a top-dollar staff yet. I'd imagine it's hard to fundraise the money for all you've mentioned without actually having anything to show for it until you've covered all those expenses. How many sponsors would give money to someone selling the line "well we need $800,000 in the bank before you'll actually see anything as a result of your donation. Hopefully that will be within the next 10 years. Thanks for your trust and support." As made clear by my overt sarcasm, I don't think what you've outlined is realistic.

I would be curious to hear from the directors of the new/returning corps for this year to see how many of them had all that you mention in place prior to November 2009.

[IntheMood]

I ask these questions because I would like to start connecting the dots.

Who is in charge of the OC DIV?

Do the OC Corps have voting rights within DCI?

Who creates the OC Div. rules? Or are they just rubber stamped from DCI.

What support if any, does the OC Div. receive from DCI?

Why do the OC Corps for the most part receive no money when they preform at OC Shows?

Dean

[Stu]

I ask these questions because I would like to start connecting the dots ...

As far as I know (tribute to the poster garfield ) :

Who is in charge of the OC DIV?

David Edelman, DCI OC Director

Do the OC Corps have voting rights within DCI?

No. The winner of the Div II used to have a vote, but that might have changed when they became OC.

Who creates the OC Div. rules?

The DCI Board and the WC member corps directors vote on rules for "all" divisions. Then the OC directors can apply those rules as they see fit in their own division.

What support if any, does the OC Div. receive from DCI?

DCI helps Tour Event Partners, those who underwrite shows, with marketing and judges.

Why do the OC Corps for the most part receive no money when they perform at OC Shows?

For some reason, the OC directors got together and decided to refuse any prize money in the name of helping DCI defray costs.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Stu

[audiodb]

Do the OC Corps have voting rights within DCI?

No. The winner of the Div II used to have a vote, but that might have changed when they became OC.

That is not correct. At one time, there was a division II/III representative to the DCI BOD, but the position had no voting power.

Who creates the OC Div. rules?

The DCI Board and the WC member corps directors vote on rules for "all" divisions. Then the OC directors can apply those rules as they see fit in their own division.

Technically, open-class can make their own rules (subject to the world-class BOD's approval). The shorter minimum show duration for open-class is an example of that.

Why do the OC Corps for the most part receive no money when they perform at OC Shows?

For some reason, the OC directors got together and decided to refuse any prize money in the name of helping DCI defray costs.

And that was a decision arrived at under the, um, encouragement of the parent DCI organization. To be fair, though, that change enables the open-class event to be offered to potential TEPs (show sponsors) at a much lower price tag than the corresponding world-class event.

[Stu]

Technically, open-class can make their own rules (subject to the world-class BOD's approval)

That is like saying my kid can make up his own rules subject to my parental approval. It would do nothing more than give my kid the "illusion" that he is in control of his own rules. So, if the decisions made by the Open Class concerning OC rules are subject to World Class BOD approval; then "technically" the Open Class still have no real control over making their own rules. That is why I stated the OC directors can apply the WC rules as they see fit in their own division.

At one time, there was a division II/III representative to the DCI BOD, but the position had no voting power.

I knew that "back in the day" the winner of D II Finals could set at member the table, and I thought that at that time they had one vote. Thanks for the correction.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Stu