skajerk Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 (edited) Well, since you guys are looking for an argument...Are you going to deny that BD cut 2 sops at the beginning of second tour in 83? Are you going to deny that BD sent other members to recruit lead sops from Madison to fill those holes? Just try. That's what I mean by hardball. And now since this has been posted, countdown to thread closure in... Edited July 12, 2010 by skajerk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tja273 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Well, since you guys are looking for an argument...Are you going to deny that BD cut 2 sops at the beginning of second tour in 83? Are you going to deny that BD sent other members to recruit lead sops from Madison to fill those holes? Just try. That's what I mean by hardball. I don't know anything about that story. Perhaps someone from that time frame would care to tells us their side. I do know BD has cut players before...before tour...during tour...even just before finals. I also undertstand they had good reasons. I also saw them take a drummer that was struggling in the snare line and find him a place in the pit where he could learn and excel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 (edited) Look: I like the Blue Devils. I've liked their shows over the years. But if you want to know why they win, I would be willing to wager a lot of money it comes down to these things:1. Money. Talented staff, talented designers and arrangers all cost big bucks. 2. Older Marchers. Duh. If you have a corps like Spirit whose average age is something like 17, and BD whose average age is about 20, you realize that you have juniors in college competing physically, musically, and esthetically with juniors in high school. 3. The inherent advantage top five corps have that make any kind of parity unthinkable: If you counted the number of hours of sleep, and the number of hours of rehearsal corps who go last in performance night after night have, it means an almost insurmountable advantage. They don't win because they do art better (and by the way, this could apply to almost any member of the G7). They're older, more talented, better financed, and have more opportunity to heal physically and rehearse. Yeah, it's definitely a mystery. I'd agree with this too. Even athletes at 20-22 are bigger, stronger, faster, than they were at 16-18 as with most other 16-18 year olders. Doing Drum Corps requires lots of stamina, endurance, time management skills, maturity, etc ( no surprise, right ? ). And MOST 20-22 year olders tend to have this down pat more than your typical junior in High School.( again.. no surprise )..... and having a great staff that is paid well, has a reputation for producing Championship winning shows tends to draw marching talent from all over. Mature talent. The marchers work hard. The capable and experienced staff produces shows capable of winning it all if the marchers execute it properly. And the mature talent usually produces the desired result for all ... and thus the Blue Devils usually win, or are close. Edited July 12, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckdan Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 I saw BD at Denver on July 10th. They were simply breathtaking and they made their show just look so #### easy! I will admit that I heard quite a few more "blats", "screeches", and missed releases than I usually heard from a BD hornline, but, they are always so smooth that you think that they were supposed to do these mistakes. They just exude an "aura" that is hard to deny. I really thought that Cadets should have been alot closer than they were and probably had a better horn show. Blue Devils have a show that should win at finals again this year, but, Cadets could make a major push and keep BD on their toes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socalcontra Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Well, since you guys are looking for an argument...Are you going to deny that BD cut 2 sops at the beginning of second tour in 83? Are you going to deny that BD sent other members to recruit lead sops from Madison to fill those holes? Just try. That's what I mean by hardball. I was there in '83, and it was one sop who got cut, not two. Yes, to this day I believe it was a raw deal for that person to be cut because but obviously there is nothing I could do at that time as a marching member to change the decision of the staff. Did I voice my displeasure, yes-did it do any good-no. Also, for the record, the person's spot was filled by someone who had previously marched in BD who had not been involved with the corps up to that point in '83. Also #2 for the record is the person who was cut ended up being in a corps that season-the staff made sure that person had a place to march. Again, maybe for the conspiracy people she could have been marching that spot for the person who finally ended up with it, but I'll never know. Maybe you could ask Wayne Downey about it-of course he doesn't answer my emails about current BD stuff, so I doubt he'll answer yours about a situation that occured over 20+ years ago. Oh, and I highly doubt it that anyone in '83 Madison would have left for a spot in BD because their show absoulutely rocked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Instead of watching BD, watch Cadets: their execution and design (especially visually) was far under BD in Denver.I don't understand why people are having a hard time believing that Blue Devils are super clean in early July, and Cadets are incomplete and dirty: this concept is not new or foreign. Blue Devils traditionally come out slamming clean, and have the potential to peak early and get caught (I'm looking at you, Blue Devils 1995). Conversely, Cadets often come out dirty with a skeleton of a show; they endlessly tweak their design and make strides late like few other corps can, and are OFTEN more dangerous than most people give them credit for early season (stand up and take a bow, Cadets 92). It's funny, I can recall many of these same comments about BD at least here in the East back in the 70's. They were such a machine they made it look so easy. Fans of corps like 2-7, North Star, Garfield and Bayonne used to complain about how dry BD seemed to them (me too! as a big 2-7 fan) but they were just do darn good they were tough to beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 (edited) I was there in '83, and it was one sop who got cut, not two. Yes, to this day I believe it was a raw deal for that person to be cut because but obviously there is nothing I could do at that time as a marching member to change the decision of the staff. Did I voice my displeasure, yes-did it do any good-no. Also, for the record, the person's spot was filled by someone who had previously marched in BD who had not been involved with the corps up to that point in '83. Also #2 for the record is the person who was cut ended up being in a corps that season-the staff made sure that person had a place to march. Again, maybe for the conspiracy people she could have been marching that spot for the person who finally ended up with it, but I'll never know. Maybe you could ask Wayne Downey about it-of course he doesn't answer my emails about current BD stuff, so I doubt he'll answer yours about a situation that occured over 20+ years ago. Oh, and I highly doubt it that anyone in '83 Madison would have left for a spot in BD because their show absoulutely rocked! It is kind of lame to be bringing up something that happened 27 years ago... well before any of the current marchers in DCI were even born. This has nothing at all to do with the Blue Devils Corps marchers winning Saturday nite. Not a thing. Edited July 12, 2010 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanguard87 Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Conversely, without a Championship show design the best executed show is 2nd place or worse. The best show doesn't always win, especially if it's not performed the cleanest. But it is VERY rare that a weak show design beats a similarly executed better show design. Actually, I think the OP was making pretty much the opposite point. I think he was saying that clean wins, period. Not "clean + best design", not "clean + artistically pleasing", not "clean + fan favorite"--just "clean". I'll extend the argument a bit further and say that this is nothing new at all. Clean has always won, period. There have been, what, 38 DCI championships. By my count, there have been 10 "photo finishes"--either ties or margin-of-error virtual ties. Set those aside. Of the remaining 28, I can think of only one case in which the winning corps was not also the cleanest corps (disclaimers: 1) eye of the beholder, yadda yadda; 2) I didn't follow the activity in any capacity prior to 1981; 3) obviously I'm not an impartial observer). What is new, IMO, is the degree to which BD is now designing to the sheets. Again IMO, since 2007 they have almost completely dropped any pretense about making a coherent artistic statement (other than "hey you, look how clean and ###### we are"), making music that you want to listen to on CD over and over again, and so on. Even that is not exactly new; what BD is doing is different in degree, not in kind. All corps design to the sheets to some extent (i.e., no corps performs a 30-minute show, has a 35-member pit with no battery, marches 200 members, performs Cage's 4'33, etc.). Cavaliers took designing to the sheets to a new level starting in 2000, and BD since 2007 has taken that up a level or two. I should note here that while many people use the term "designing to the sheets" in a derogatory sense, I am not. I'm sure you could come up with some kind of limit case of a show that could be perfectly clean and not win (C Major whole notes set to scatter drill, say), but no corps does that, and none will. Put in a more positive way, all corps that have any hope at all of winning (let's say the top 10 for argument's sake) have that fabled "championship-caliber design". The question is, and always has been, who is cleanest? Now for me personally, I deeply dislike a lot of what BD has been doing since 2007 (particularly their musical arrangements). But so what? They were the cleanest corps in 2007 and 2009 (2008 being one of those "photo finishes"), so they won, and deserved to. That said, given how clean they are, designing to the sheets to the extreme degree they do these days seems like overkill. I think they could back off on that and still win handily. Part of me wishes they would recreate their 1982 show note for note and dot for dot and win with that just to prove a point (chopping off 90 seconds or so, obviously). To me, designing to the sheets to the degree BD does is comparable to flopping in soccer. As a fan I can't stand it on an aesthetic level, but if a team is out to win, and it provides a competitive edge, it's crazy not to do it. If you have a problem with it, your problem is with the rules, not the team. The bottom line is, if you want to take down BD, be cleaner than BD. It's not rocket science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socalcontra Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 It is kind of lame to be bringing up something that happened 27 years ago... well before any of the current marchers in DCI were even born. This has nothing at all to do with the Blue Devils Corps marchers winning Saturday nite. Not a thing. AGREED! I was just trying to clarify and clear up any misinformation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skajerk Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 (edited) It is kind of lame to be bringing up something that happened 27 years ago... well before any of the current marchers in DCI were even born. This has nothing at all to do with the Blue Devils Corps marchers winning Saturday nite. Not a thing. Just so you know, Erron was responding to this: Well, since you guys are looking for an argument...Are you going to deny that BD cut 2 sops at the beginning of second tour in 83? Are you going to deny that BD sent other members to recruit lead sops from Madison to fill those holes? Just try. That's what I mean by hardball. And I agree, vferra shouldn't have brought it up in the first place. Edited July 12, 2010 by skajerk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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