Why is DCI so unknown by almost everyone?

[garfield]

How about you tell everyone how you really, really feel?

While I do get what you're saying, he was making a joke, not being condescending. But in turn of replying to him, you pretty much said that anyone who likes the advancements of the activity and the artsy way of drum corps are wrong, and are ruining it for the people who want it the way it once was. But part of what it comes down to is people trying to reclaim the DCI of the past, instead of looking to the future. In the days of 5-second attention spans, DCI needs to do everything it can to stay relevant to the band kids who will form the next generation of marchers, and it works both ways. We influence the marching band world, and they in turn influence us.

So, if all DCI fans get off the high horse a little bit, I think it could help our relevance. So many people have tried to turn DCI into this elitist group of only the best, and screw the marching band world, instead of working with it more to help get the exposure drum corps needs to survive in the future.

Interesting interpretation.

Firstly, we'll simply disagree about the poster's motivations for his one-line quip. Taken singularly it could be construed as just a joke. But in the totality of his posts condescention does, in fact, trump the sense of humor.

Secondly, it is demonstrable that the attempt to "expand the horizons" of legacy fans has not resulted in their greater satisfaction of the product on the field. Witness the fact that the article was written nearly 20 years ago and yet, today, we still hear the same dissatisfaction repeated over and over again.

Thirdly, drum corps doesn't need to stay relevant to the band kids. The "whinosoaur" generation of band kids produced "corps-style" marching bands who did everything they could to be like corps because of the high level of excellence corps produced. If corps become "influenced" by bands then how does drum corps retain that high level of excellence worth imitating?

Marketing to band kids doesn't mean looking like them. Band kids don't want "more band" that looks like their fall competition circuits. They want to strive to attain the same levels of excellence that's several steps higher than their fall programs.

That marching bands of today have "caught up" to drum corps simply and clearly shows that drum corps has not maintained its high level worth imitating. Band directors who leave their football crowds shaking their heads in high-brow confusion will soon find themselves in front of the parents and administrators.

This is one example where drum corps "zagged" and marching bands didn't follow. And they lost their relevance in the process.

Appealing to marching bands doesn't mean looking like them. It means being their envy where their best players can't wait to compete for the excellence it provides.

Edited October 3, 2010 by garfield

[fsubone]

Interesting interpretation.

Firstly, we'll simply disagree with the poster's motivations for his one-line quip. Taken singularly it could be construed as just a joke. But in the totality of his posts condescention does, in fact, trump the sense of humor.

Secondly, it is demonstrable that the attempt to "expand the horizons" of legacy fans has not resulted in their greater satisfaction of the product on the field. Witness the fact that the article was written nearly 20 years ago and yet, today, we still hear the same dissatisfaction repeated over and over again.

Thirdly, drum corps doesn't need to stay relevant to the band kids. The "whinosoaur" generation of band kids produced "corps-style" marching bands who did everything they could to be like corps because of the high level of excellence corps produced. If corps become "influenced" by bands then how does drum corps retain that high level of excellence worth imitating?

Marketing to band kids doesn't mean looking like them. Band kids don't want "more band" that looks like their fall competition circuits. They want to strive to attain the same levels of excellence that's several steps higher than their fall programs.

That marching bands of today have "caught up" to drum corps simply and clearly shows that drum corps has not maintained its high level worth imitating. Band directors who leave their football crowds shaking their heads in high-brow confusion will soon find themselves in front of the parents and administrators.

This is one example where drum corps "zagged" and marching bands didn't follow. And they lost their relevance in the process.

Appealing to marching bands doesn't mean looking like them. It means being their envy where their best players can't wait to compete for the excellence it provides.

But which one of us looks like the other. I'm more inclined to think that marching bands follow drum corps more than we follow them. Back at my high school, the band uniforms were almost a direct copy of the BD uniforms from the 80s, just red instead of blue. And drum corps has always drawn in marching band because of that higher level of execution. That's what drew me to it, because I saw that higher level of perfection, that level of passion I didn't see in my marching band, which was actually a very good, well respected program.

And with the reference to the football game crowd, I will put up money that they have no interest in anything the marching band does period. The marching band I'm in at college does super entertaining shows, usually with popular music, and it does nothing for the crowd. No amount of work at entertaining the football crowd is really going to do much. Sorry,

[garfield]

But which one of us looks like the other. I'm more inclined to think that marching bands follow drum corps more than we follow them. Back at my high school, the band uniforms were almost a direct copy of the BD uniforms from the 80s, just red instead of blue. And drum corps has always drawn in marching band because of that higher level of execution. That's what drew me to it, because I saw that higher level of perfection, that level of passion I didn't see in my marching band, which was actually a very good, well respected program.

You reiterate my point exactly. Thank you.

So what, exactly, is the rationale for appealing to the marching band crowd by looking more like them?

[fsubone]

You reiterate my point exactly. Thank you.

So what, exactly, is the rationale for appealing to the marching band crowd by looking more like them?

Because it gets more people into the programs. Drum corps don't need to look like them, but if we can include more of them, I think it will help drum corps be more relevant in today's world. If we can get kids in corps when they're in high school, it will give them more time in corps, meaning better kids by the time they come out, and some of them will become band directors, and can take the skills they've learned in corps to their own bands, which will continue the cycle of getting kids interested in corps. My high school band director marched Santa Clara back in the day and he really inspired me and helped push me towards corps life.

[AmFlag61]

How about you tell everyone how you really, really feel?

While I do get what you're saying, he was making a joke, not being condescending. But in turn of replying to him, you pretty much said that anyone who likes the advancements of the activity and the artsy way of drum corps are wrong, and are ruining it for the people who want it the way it once was. But part of what it comes down to is people trying to reclaim the DCI of the past, instead of looking to the future. In the days of 5-second attention spans, DCI needs to do everything it can to stay relevant to the band kids who will form the next generation of marchers, and it works both ways. We influence the marching band world, and they in turn influence us.

So, if all DCI fans get off the high horse a little bit, I think it could help our relevance. So many people have tried to turn DCI into this elitist group of only the best, and screw the marching band world, instead of working with it more to help get the exposure drum corps needs to survive in the future.

Holy Cow! Until this hilarious Post, I didn't get it! Gosh, that superior, I see further than you attitude was just a joke! Thank God! For a while there I thought Hopkins and his sycophants like yourself were serious. Just goes to show you how we Chicago rubes can miss the point entirely! But then sarcasm & satire are wasted on we the illiterate, unable to comprehend anything beyond a "Knock, Knock" joke. But how did you know that in 1961, Corps that couldn't run or jump or pirouette as well as you but could MARCH your ### into dust, would say their Evening prayers, asking God only that He help us to stay relevant to "band kids"?

Listen up, smartass! We of the '50s & '60s have watched 4 "next generations"! We haven't always understood, but you all have taught us how high Drum Corps could climb. And while, in our ignorance, we didn't immediately understand the evolution you created, we came to not only accept but love Drum Corps even more,

But this proposed 5th generation is creating turmoil among those upon whose shoulders you stand. "Band Kids"? Want to join the Corps? Then lay down that woodwind and learn to play a (dare I say it?) freakin' Bugle.

Keep it up, Hopkins, Gibbs, and any of you G7 elitists, and watch not only your Fans disappear, but your Alumni as well. And like it or not, we collectively, Fans & Alumni were the main reason you still exist!

Is that "relevant" enough for you, f......s...u.bone head?

[oldschooldbc]

That is very true, but I do think we still see some of this today. I mean, you won't see as much of a contrast, which is kind of sad, you will still see a difference. Look at Finals from 2009. Top 5 corps, BD, Crown, Cadets, Cavaliers, SCV. All of these five had radically different show designs and styles. We had jazz, symphonic music, West Side Story, a mix of jazzy stuff and symphonic, and Appalachian Spring. You won't see a pop song winning a championship anymore, but I still think that you do see enough contrast in shows to keep things interesting.

Nor did you see the San Diego Chicken. Sorry, Bayonne Chicken. Or guard members dressed up as clowns and dancing bears. Or a fantastic rendition of an Earth, Wind and Fire tune. No, Bayonne didn't win that night in 1980, but they came real close....Jerry Lewis would have been pleased.

Nor did you hear a sensational rendition of Sweet Georgia Brown, blasted out by that Jim Ott hornline. Or Tom Float's rendition of The Devil Went Down to Georgia. Kid Rock would have been pleased, although he was probably only 5 years old at the time.

Nor did you hear 27th's heart-wrenching performance of Danny Boy. 27th performed that every year for a decade. If you paid for a 27th show, and wanted to hear Danny Boy, you got what you paid for. Anita Bryant would have been pleased.

Nor did you hear Wayne Downey's trenendous arrangements of Free and Pegasus, belted out by their soprano screamers. You didn't hear that, either. Dave Brubeck himself would have been pleased. Hey, he is from Concord.

See a pattern here? I see two of them: Consistency and Variation. First, corps were very consistent in what they presented year after year. The music was not the same, but you got the same product, whenever you paid for one of their shows. There was no guessing about what type of a show you were going to get from any of the 4 corps listed above. (However, today, when I buy a ticket to a corps' show. Some corps seem schizophrenic, in how they change year after year. It is as if the corps are changing into each other's uniforms each year. It's maddening. For example, what will Cadets perform next year? Will it be Little Geoffrey? Or a show full of vocals? Or girls in Catholic school uniforms, like the 2005 show? Or Malaguena? Who knows.....I don't know if George knows.)

But at the same time, there was variation between the corps. BD would have a very different show from SCV, and 27th would have a very different show from Bridgemen. Different shows would appeal to different tastes. (However, today the corps seem increasingly homogenized. Homogenization is great for milk, but bad for drum corps.)

Consistency and variation. Any marketing person will tell you that these are keys to building a retaining a customer base. Variation is important: you have to give different products that appears to different segments of your market. That is why you see the same brand of toothpaste, but in 5 different flavors. But consistency is still vitally imporant. You have to give the customer the same product each time, or else you will turn them away.

Edited October 3, 2010 by oldschooldbc

[Stu]

Because it gets more people into the programs. Drum corps don't need to look like them, but if we can include more of them, I think it will help drum corps be more relevant in today's world. If we can get kids in corps when they're in high school, it will give them more time in corps, meaning better kids by the time they come out, and some of them will become band directors, and can take the skills they've learned in corps to their own bands, which will continue the cycle of getting kids interested in corps. My high school band director marched Santa Clara back in the day and he really inspired me and helped push me towards corps life.

I saw this situation developing for may years: MBA (older version of BOA) used to look to DCI as the ideal in which to emulate; now people are wanting DCI to look at BOA as the ideal to emulate. So, fsubone, which is the ideal, the top, the organization in which the marching activity should aspire, DCI or BOA? If you say BOA should drive the activity, then DCI should bow out of the Major League claim and give that designation over to BOA; just as if MLB rules and regulations were to be driven by the NCAA (for example since aluminum bats are used in NCAA, MLB must follow the lead of the NCAA). However, if you say DCI should drive the activity, that DCI is the top of the activity, then they should only be concerned with developing a high enough quality product that no high school or college marching ensemble or contest can begin to touch that quality level; which most WC corps corps' have done.

[garfield]

Because it gets more people into the programs. Drum corps don't need to look like them, but if we can include more of them, I think it will help drum corps be more relevant in today's world. If we can get kids in corps when they're in high school, it will give them more time in corps, meaning better kids by the time they come out, and some of them will become band directors, and can take the skills they've learned in corps to their own bands, which will continue the cycle of getting kids interested in corps. My high school band director marched Santa Clara back in the day and he really inspired me and helped push me towards corps life.

There's a significant difference between appealing to high school kids to grow the activity and changing the activity to look like high school to grow the activity. The former is what you (and I!) want to do, the latter is what the "leaders" of today's drum corps want to do.

I think we agree a lot more than we disagree, particularly in regards to elevating the level of discourse on DCP, ala your discussion with Tony (Big Bad Bari) on the other thread and my calling out the ineffectiveness of naming legacy fans in the same category as the perpetual whiners.

Edited October 3, 2010 by garfield

[fsubone]

There's a significant difference between appealing to high school kids to grow the activity and changing the activity to look like high school to grow the activity. The former is what you (and I!) want to do, the latter is what the "leaders" of today's drum corps want to do.

I think we agree a lot more than we disagree, particularly in regards to elevating the level of discourse on DCP, ala your discussion with Tony (Big Bad Bari) on the other thread and my calling out the ineffectiveness of naming legacy fans in the same category as the perpetual whiners.

Yep. I'm trying to work on raising the amount of discourse we always see on here. I really think that if everyone waited a minute, and thought their post out before the put it down, we would see less fighting on here. Too many times, rational discussion gets thrown out because emotion takes over or someone gets their feelings hurt, and we turn back into the bickering like always. I'd just like to see a change.

Edited October 4, 2010 by fsubone

[fsubone]

See a pattern here? I see two of them: Consistency and Variation. First, corps were very consistent in what they presented year after year. The music was not the same, but you got the same product, whenever you paid for one of their shows. There was no guessing about what type of a show you were going to get from any of the 4 corps listed above. (However, today, when I buy a ticket to a corps' show. Some corps seem schizophrenic, in how they change year after year. It is as if the corps are changing into each other's uniforms each year. It's maddening. For example, what will Cadets perform next year? Will it be Little Geoffrey? Or a show full of vocals? Or girls in Catholic school uniforms, like the 2005 show? Or Malaguena? Who knows.....I don't know if George knows.)

But at the same time, there was variation between the corps. BD would have a very different show from SCV, and 27th would have a very different show from Bridgemen. Different shows would appeal to different tastes. (However, today the corps seem increasingly homogenized. Homogenization is great for milk, but bad for drum corps.)

Consistency and variation. Any marketing person will tell you that these are keys to building a retaining a customer base. Variation is important: you have to give different products that appears to different segments of your market. That is why you see the same brand of toothpaste, but in 5 different flavors. But consistency is still vitally imporant. You have to give the customer the same product each time, or else you will turn them away.

I do actually think we need a corps like Bayonne again in World Class.

But on the topic of consistency, do we really want that anymore? Do we really want to see corps do the same thing over and over again. Do we want to see corps repeat the same tune year in and year out? Would people like to see Madison do Malaguena year after year, or would it get old? Or BD do Pegasus? Or Spirit do Georgia? Now, I know some people would like that very much, I would love to see some of them bring back some old tunes, but that's not the point. I think a corps doing a different show each year, choosing a new direction, allows for corps to try out different stuff, and fins what works best. I think a corps like Cadets are in a point of transition, and will soon find what works best for them. SCV has hit their formula in the last couple of years, bringing back the minimalism, while approaching orchestral charts.

And you're absolutely right, different strokes for different folks. There at years when I can't stand to watch some corps' shows, but other years where I can't get enough of them. Even with the old shows. There a better and worse versions of shows. I still think that the '80 version of Danny Boy is the ultimate one, same for '80 Spirit and Georgia. But I'm sure people think differently, and that's cool