Accessible vs. Avant-Garde

[lindap]

where's the obelisk?

that prop wouldn't fit in the mini-vans; funny you lol

[Plan9]

I voted both.

I'm onw of the few BD "haters" who actually loved BD's show last year

( of course I spent 69 days in the hospital on heavy morphine once so I have a better mindset to be able to appreciate trips of the mental type)

To me, it's pretty simple:

The higher placing the corps, the more Avant-Garde they can attempt to be, the lower the corps ranks the more accessible they MUST be.

The higher the corps, the better chance they have of bouncing back from attempting something the crowd doesn't appreciate. The lower ranked the corps, the bigger chance for stumbling for several years to get back on track.

I started marching in 70 so I've been around for awhile. Plaain and simple, either a show sells or it doesn't. If you're going to try and be on the inovative fringe, there better be enough meat in the show to sell it to joe average as well as those who think their #### don't stink.

Did Phantom deserve to win ? I'm not really positive but giving the crowd what it wants sure made them a winner in my heart.

Did BD deserve to win this year ? I'm not sure but that show took me to mental places no other show ever has.

I loved both winning shows and thats the first time that has happened ( liking 2 winners back to back years ) in many years.

Can't wait to see what this year brings

Well stated. Actually, ridiculously well stated!

[Plan9]

I disagree. Being dumb-founded and amazed and overwhelmed is far from disconnected. I can't imagine saying "it didn't connect with me" in response to those sort of reactions.

And once again 'cup of tea' is talking about taste (which I think we agree is different than designed effect).

First.... that's easy. Crossmen !

And why is that? Because the musical arrangements (although they work great in the marching band world) didn't quite seem to translate to the drum corps world. Hmmm...they didn't like the arrangements... Is there another corps we hear that about?

As for BD being somehow limited, those comments simply reflect that lots of people who used to really enjoy their music find it more difficult to do so now. They truly desire to like the musical product again and naturally recall those years when they did. That's not a constraint on design but feedback from their fans! I think it's pretty silly to suggest that BD somehow has fewer options in the future than the rest of DCI. IMO they have more -- it's much easier to try new things when you're last years winner. You naturally get the benefit of the doubt from the judges. In BD's case that's multiplied many times over.

Look I agree BD takes extra crap on here just because they're successful. But that doesn't mean that there aren't also genuine points worth discussing about their program. Believe it or not there are people on DCP that have a passing familiarity with the marching activity, design issues, and judging criteria. Questioning how an esoteric music selection and an extremely terse arrangement fit in the GE Music caption was (in my view at least) perfectly legitimate. If you want to know why people might be passionate about such a thing, maybe it's because what happens in DCI trickles down to the rest of the marching world...

Here's a question for you:

Do you think any other corps could have won with BD 2010's production?

Could BD have won last year with the Cavies show?

Crossmen is a fair answer, I don't have the history enough to determine to what degree you are correct, but I do recall some discussion along those lines. But I think you know the point I was making. I also agree that "success (and particularly dominance)" breeds a very different tempo of analysis than "also ran", it's the nature of the beast.

One point of clarification: I don't believe that BD was or is limited in any way in future design by all this (or even gives two craps). I was simply attempting to make a point that DCP seems to have a different set of standards that they apply to them. I also agree with much of your analysis in terms of audience perception, and the collective knowledge on DCP,but it must be said that prejudice has been rampant about their designs. Why not applaud the exploration (even if it sqeaks in your brain a little)?

Finally...... good questions (in fact, I proffered the first one several months back). I absolutely believe with no doubt that if CC (particularly) and Cavies did BD's 2010 production at the same level of performance, they would have won by the same large margin. More importantly, they (CC particularly) would not have been scorned for it in the same way BD was. Similarly BD was raked over the coals for their scatter drill in 2008, then the next year when CC did it.....not a peep (and a Silver medal)! BTW, I know to some it sounds like whining....it isn't, it's simply an attempt to get real and accept as a discussion community that there are two standards when this corps is involved. I also believe from your comments above that we are not so far apart in our perceptions...taste is another thing.

Your last question is intriguing. I think this is where I may offend some on DCP, and it's not my desire to do so. The simple answer is NO. I liked the Cavies show this year, but I think it was a hyper version of themself and in some ways might have been the last gasp of their visual colossus decade. They are such a talented corps, but the similarity year after year denys them the range they are capable of reaching. Yes, the crowd loved it, and the "this is my rifle" section was great, but it was soooooo cavafied, you could literally interchange parts with other shows and not miss a beat. In the same way, it's difficult to watch PR try to re-capture that Spartacus design again, it's almost sad. Dark, death...yada yada, I fear will be on their design menu for some time.... and their undoing.

[cowtown]

I can’t recall the last time I saw an Avant Garde show in DCI when did they fold again?

Kidding but not really

Nothing in the past 15 years at least stands out to me as Avant Garde – don’t flatter yourself here....back when there were hundreds of corps there were some real freak shows and not just playing with the rules and new toys pretending to be avant garde when you’re really covering for being artistically bankrupt

[craiga]

Crossmen is a fair answer, I don't have the history enough to determine to what degree you are correct, but I do recall some discussion along those lines. But I think you know the point I was making. I also agree that "success (and particularly dominance)" breeds a very different tempo of analysis than "also ran", it's the nature of the beast.

One point of clarification: I don't believe that BD was or is limited in any way in future design by all this (or even gives two craps). I was simply attempting to make a point that DCP seems to have a different set of standards that they apply to them. I also agree with much of your analysis in terms of audience perception, and the collective knowledge on DCP,but it must be said that prejudice has been rampant about their designs. Why not applaud the exploration (even if it sqeaks in your brain a little)?

Finally...... good questions (in fact, I proffered the first one several months back). I absolutely believe with no doubt that if CC (particularly) and Cavies did BD's 2010 production at the same level of performance, they would have won by the same large margin. More importantly, they (CC particularly) would not have been scorned for it in the same way BD was. Similarly BD was raked over the coals for their scatter drill in 2008, then the next year when CC did it.....not a peep (and a Silver medal)! BTW, I know to some it sounds like whining....it isn't, it's simply an attempt to get real and accept as a discussion community that there are two standards when this corps is involved. I also believe from your comments above that we are not so far apart in our perceptions...taste is another thing.

Your last question is intriguing. I think this is where I may offend some on DCP, and it's not my desire to do so. The simple answer is NO. I liked the Cavies show this year, but I think it was a hyper version of themself and in some ways might have been the last gasp of their visual colossus decade. They are such a talented corps, but the similarity year after year denys them the range they are capable of reaching. Yes, the crowd loved it, and the "this is my rifle" section was great, but it was soooooo cavafied, you could literally interchange parts with other shows and not miss a beat. In the same way, it's difficult to watch PR try to re-capture that Spartacus design again, it's almost sad. Dark, death...yada yada, I fear will be on their design menu for some time.... and their undoing.

Plan9, I personally did not enjoy parts of BD's show in 2010 due to its inaccesibility( to me). Having said that, they of course are a great corps and I do find myself agreeing with 95% of your comments here. What we are really talking about here is POETIC LICENSE. Corps like BD ( and recently Crown) have a different level of poetic license--call it Class 3 or whatever--than many other corps.

Or, to put it more directly, BD's trumpet section could come out onto the 50 and take a cr@p right there, do a fist pump in the air, and SOME people would say "Look at the statement they are making!" whilst clapping wildly. The Blue Knights would not get away with the same.......I jest, but you get the point....

Edited April 1, 2011 by craiga

[jjeffeory]

Crossmen is a fair answer, I don't have the history enough to determine to what degree you are correct, but I do recall some discussion along those lines. But I think you know the point I was making. I also agree that "success (and particularly dominance)" breeds a very different tempo of analysis than "also ran", it's the nature of the beast.

One point of clarification: I don't believe that BD was or is limited in any way in future design by all this (or even gives two craps). I was simply attempting to make a point that DCP seems to have a different set of standards that they apply to them. I also agree with much of your analysis in terms of audience perception, and the collective knowledge on DCP,but it must be said that prejudice has been rampant about their designs. Why not applaud the exploration (even if it sqeaks in your brain a little)?

Finally...... good questions (in fact, I proffered the first one several months back). I absolutely believe with no doubt that if CC (particularly) and Cavies did BD's 2010 production at the same level of performance, they would have won by the same large margin. More importantly, they (CC particularly) would not have been scorned for it in the same way BD was. Similarly BD was raked over the coals for their scatter drill in 2008, then the next year when CC did it.....not a peep (and a Silver medal)! BTW, I know to some it sounds like whining....it isn't, it's simply an attempt to get real and accept as a discussion community that there are two standards when this corps is involved. I also believe from your comments above that we are not so far apart in our perceptions...taste is another thing.

Your last question is intriguing. I think this is where I may offend some on DCP, and it's not my desire to do so. The simple answer is NO. I liked the Cavies show this year, but I think it was a hyper version of themself and in some ways might have been the last gasp of their visual colossus decade. They are such a talented corps, but the similarity year after year denys them the range they are capable of reaching. Yes, the crowd loved it, and the "this is my rifle" section was great, but it was soooooo cavafied, you could literally interchange parts with other shows and not miss a beat. In the same way, it's difficult to watch PR try to re-capture that Spartacus design again, it's almost sad. Dark, death...yada yada, I fear will be on their design menu for some time.... and their undoing.

If CC or Cavies performed BD's show last year, they would have absolutely gotten the same negative reactions that BD received.

When BD performs a show that is universally liked, they hit a home run. They are loved. Look at their 2003 Phenomenom of Cool show for evidence of that... People loved them in 2004 and 2006 too. Most reasonable people don't simply hate the Blue Devils because they're the Blue Devils... Some may, but that's few and far between.

...and I understand your assertion that the Cavaliers are " in some ways ... on their last gasp of their visual colossus decade. "

The problems with that statement... Their visual colossus has gone back to around 1985 at least. The Cavaliers, the Green Machine, aren't going to lose their visual identity. They are always at the forefront of the visual aspects of marching music.

[BRASSO]

Plan9, I personally did not enjoy parts of BD's show in 2010 due to its inaccesibility( to me). Having said that, they of course are a great corps and I do find myself agreeing with 95% of your comments here. What we are really talking about here is POETIC LICENSE. Corps like BD ( and recently Crown) have a different level of poetic license--call it Class 3 or whatever--than many other corps.

Or, to put it more directly, BD's trumpet section could come out onto the 50 and take a cr@p right there, do a fist pump in the air, and SOME people would say "Look at the statement they are making!" whilst clapping wildly. The Blue Knights would not get away with the same.......I jest, but you get the point....

I think we all agree that uniform, and reputation should have nothing to do with a Corps placement and score.

I've said this in the past ( and will once more ), but if we had all the Corps perform a show in which no uniforms or insignias were worn.. in other words the judge did not know the Corps ( hard to do, I know, but assume we could have all the judges stay in an isolation booth, then let them out to judge the Corps not in uniform, ie a blind test, Corps in street clothes, insignias covered up, etc ) theotretically then the placements and scores for Corps 1-25 would be identical to what we have when the judges know the Corps beforehand.

If only we could do this to find out if it really was identical. Who knows, maybe it all would be identical. Then again, we just might get some shocking results too, who knows. I think it's entirely possible we'd have some shocking results if the judges judged all the Corps without knowing who they were. But of course, I can't prove it, and it's only speculation.

Edited April 1, 2011 by BRASSO

[GUARDLING]

Plan9, I personally did not enjoy parts of BD's show in 2010 due to its inaccesibility( to me). Having said that, they of course are a great corps and I do find myself agreeing with 95% of your comments here. What we are really talking about here is POETIC LICENSE. Corps like BD ( and recently Crown) have a different level of poetic license--call it Class 3 or whatever--than many other corps.

Or, to put it more directly, BD's trumpet section could come out onto the 50 and take a cr@p right there, do a fist pump in the air, and SOME people would say "Look at the statement they are making!" whilst clapping wildly. The Blue Knights would not get away with the same.......I jest, but you get the point....

Youre right in your last paragraph ,BUT ,I admit not being a BD fan although I did like last year ( one of the few maybe )but it's called the world of double standards, it exsists in every aspect of our activity from WGI to DCI and DCA. Hell it exsists in life. I'm not saying it's right but how many times in this activity have you heard ( and I know you heard it at your corps ) you have to be points better just to be noticed or make it in Again not saying it's right but a fact of life.

[BRASSO]

you have to be points better just to be noticed or make it in[/b] Again not saying it's right but a fact of life.

Agree. Drum Corps competition is not like a horse race, where the winner is determined by which horse crosses the finish line first. Drum Corps competition is a point system... like boxing. For example in boxing, the current Champ tends to get the benefit of the doubt on points given by the refs. The contender sometimes has to knock the champ out, or at least down for the 10 count, in order to win the bout sometimes. In a close fight, the Champ tends to win it more oftentimes than not, if it comes down to the points..... in the NBA, who gets the benefit of the doubt on a foul ? the NBA rookie, ( or bench player ) or the NBA marquee player ?

Edited April 3, 2011 by BRASSO

[BRASSO]

So which is more to your liking? And maybe more importantly, how do you define them?

Can a corps be both, or is it one or the other?

Keep it spirited, keep it clean, keep it h8r free, and keep it #WINNING!

In my perfect DCI world, DCI would have 2 separate Divisions... one for Avant Garde shows, and one for Traditional based shows. The judging sheets would be a little different in each. The Corps that opted for the Avant Garde Division would be allowed anything they wanted to bring into their show. No restrictions. You could bring in guitars, violins, singers,... even live animals and pyrotecnics if you so desired. You could play the most obtuse music from the most obscure composers found in dusty books in far flung libraries or anywhere else on the planet for that matter. Anything you wanted. The judges would reward shows that were more " out there " than the others in this Division too. The other Division would be much more restrictive, and much more traditional, and the shows would be expected to be more fan friendly. music people have heard of, or at least has a semblamce of a conventionally understood melody and harmony, whether the show was bright or dark... and the scoring sheets would reward such an audience connection and accessibility too. ... Alas, I recognize the inherent many problems in such a 2 division format. They'd be a myriad of problems with the concept, not the least of which is that the Avard Garde Division by it's very nature, might lose fans, and the Traditional Division might economically choke off the other division's economic sustainability long range. So it's not ever going to happen. But it was just a dreamy winter's thought one day that made me forget the raging snowstorm out my window for a bit.

Edited April 6, 2011 by BRASSO