DrillmanSop06 Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Read your post cuz the subtrack is interesting to me. And I'd go further and say that corps wasn't that big of a priority back then either. I'd say more inportant to the sponsoring Posts than the national orgrnization. What's missing in the discussions of AL/VFW Nations (and I missed it too) was that the DC show was only part of the convention. And since VFW dropped the Sr portion, then the corps show was more designed to be part of the convertions entertainment. Long story short, we corps people made more out of the corps show than the AL/VFW did. Used to read my dads 70s AL magazine and I can remember a pic of the Jr and a pic of the Sr winners with a line or two of who sponsored them and that was it. Hell 1978 they switched the captions on the pics. To get a real idea AL/VFW and corps connections you'd have to go start to the end of WWI and start of AL (1919) and go from there. And yes, as times and circumstances changed the role of AL/VFW changed. And as the AL/VFW (Posts and National) couldn't/wouldn't change to what the corps felt they needed then DCI and DCA were created. DCI came from problems with the VFW and DCA from problems with the AL. My point is that competitive drum corps was always a side show. I'm just confused on what people would RATHER have other than a consortium of corps collaborating to govern drum corps competition. The VFW/AL exist to support veterans. Why we're still using them in the same breath as drum corps is beyond me. I really hope I'm misinterpreting the desire of some to have retained those connections rather than vs. DCI. PS. Glad you caved and clicked to view my post. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 My point is that competitive drum corps was always a side show. I'm just confused on what people would RATHER have other than a consortium of corps collaborating to govern drum corps competition. The VFW/AL exist to support veterans. Why we're still using them in the same breath as drum corps is beyond me. I really hope I'm misinterpreting the desire of some to have retained those connections rather than vs. DCI. PS. Glad you caved and clicked to view my post. The consortium of corps governing drum corps is exactly what's wrong with the governing body. If you specifically mean running the "competition", I'm OK with that. But running the activity is not their place. Foxes meet hen-house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) The idea that DCI is run by the corps, is false. In the beginning DCI was controlled by only the top corps. The smaller corps had no say in the decisions made by DCI. Since its inception DCI has made two critical and related errors. DCI ignored the needs of the smaller corps and its obsession with the national tour model. This led to the demise of all of the smaller corps and even a good number of the top ones. In fact, of the original top twelve DCI corps, eight no longer exist. It was suicide by inept management. By letting the smaller corps perish, DCI lost a feeder source for members, fans and show venues. Add to that DCI’s never ending need to evolve the activity by adding expensive and unnecessary instruments and electronic do dads, DCI continues to play a perverse game of Russian roulette. In reality DCI has never been interested in performing for the fans. In 1972 when I marched in the first DCI we were told to impress, not the fans, but the people sitting in “the box”. Play to the box; sell the show to the box, that’s what we were told by every instructor. Drills have never been designed to impress the fans, but the box. How many fans can actually sit high enough to see and appreciate all the fancy pictures and moves? I’d like to see a drill designed to impress the fans sitting in the third row from the bottom. The fact that DCI now realizes it has to entertain and build its fan base may be the case of too little too late. You seem to forget that what we do is a competition. I also was Part of that time and still teach today. You look at 1 reason why the samller corps faded away but there were far more contributing factors than the DCI model. Rising costs for rehearsal sites,lack of community involvolment, VFWs/ Legions gone, CYOs gone, the youth as time went on had many more choices than we did as kids in the 60s and 70s. I can go on forever with all this. The world simply changed in all ways. Would I like it to go back to the simple ways of the past? in some cases yes but that's not going to happen . I would love to pay 49cents a gallon for gas again but that 2 won't happen. As far as entertainment, I can understand only to a point. I for one loved the entertainment value of the past but also see it now. Kids are so talented and asked to do so much more than we did back in the day. And yes they are told perform to the box but are also told connect to the audiance...as we did back in the DAY. jmo Edited November 20, 2011 by GUARDLING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob984 Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 The idea that DCI is run by the corps, is false. In the beginning DCI was controlled by only the top corps. The smaller corps had no say in the decisions made by DCI. Since its inception DCI has made two critical and related errors. DCI ignored the needs of the smaller corps and its obsession with the national tour model. This led to the demise of all of the smaller corps and even a good number of the top ones. In fact, of the original top twelve DCI corps, eight no longer exist. It was suicide by inept management. By letting the smaller corps perish, DCI lost a feeder source for members, fans and show venues. Add to that DCI’s never ending need to evolve the activity by adding expensive and unnecessary instruments and electronic do dads, DCI continues to play a perverse game of Russian roulette. In reality DCI has never been interested in performing for the fans. In 1972 when I marched in the first DCI we were told to impress, not the fans, but the people sitting in “the box”. Play to the box; sell the show to the box, that’s what we were told by every instructor. Drills have never been designed to impress the fans, but the box. How many fans can actually sit high enough to see and appreciate all the fancy pictures and moves? I’d like to see a drill designed to impress the fans sitting in the third row from the bottom. The fact that DCI now realizes it has to entertain and build its fan base may be the case of too little too late. I have to question many of your statements..........when I marched, DCI was only in it's 6th year, and every finalist director had a vote, for a total of 12. "Associate members" (down through 25th) could be at meetings and voice their feelings, but didn't vote. After complaints, the vote was eventually extended to associate members as well, down through 25th. I don't know what it is now. DCI established "Class A/All Girl" for less experienced and smaller corps to compete. I can tell you that more of them would have survived had they chosen that route, but many chose to get killed in the then open class as opposed to entering Class A. Later, the head of this division, which became II/III, was an experienced II/III director. I can't see how that was ignoring their needs. Now we have open class and world class. I don't think there is an easy model or one size fits all solution to fully serve the needs of these corps, but I do believe that DCI tries to approach all of it's competitors now in a positive manner. In terms of the "national tour model", we had DCE, DCS, DCM, and DCW for quite a bit of time....corps stayed in their region, and did 2 tours......the season was actually longer and more demanding time-wise in the 1970's for members than it is now.....In 77-78 when I marched, our competitive season started on Memorial Day weekend and ended Labor Day weekend. You imply that the top haven't survived......that is only partly true, if you are just referring to year 1 of DCI. However, if I go to year 4 (1975)....36 years ago...........7 of the top 12 in 1975 were in the top 12 in 2011......8 of the top 14......10 of last year's top 17 corps appeared in prelims in 1975, with 8 of those in finals in 2011. "Feeder"?? DCI never intended for div. II/III corps (or class A earlier) to be feeder corps for other top competitors. If anything, they hoped that they would develop into world class competitors. That, however, was wishful thinking, on the part of DCI and those corps. You imply that they "let corps die"......did you expect them to pay them bail-out money with money the organization did not have??? What could they have done?? In terms of membership today, the top 17 corps have adequate numbers of people auditioning....the sad part is that many of those who do not make it choose to not march in a corps low in the rankings or to march in an open class corps......... When a competitor folded, it was usually due to one of these reasons.......severe financial problems/debt/bankruptcy, lack of membership, unreasonable competitive expectations, poor competitive results, or a combination of these factors. "Expensive and unnecessary instruments" ?? Are you implying that the corps would be fine today with valve rotor horns and no melodic percussion? The changes have not been that great and were gradual.......a corps could still be playing on their G bugles if they choose to do so......electronics are not mandatory........and I don't think they would be killed competitively............I would agree that the pit may have grown a bit out of control, and I don't believe you need 20 people up there.........I would rather see 7 or 8 great ones....keep in mind, the corps decide how their 150 people are divided up, not DCI or the judges. Playing to the box?? Where do you want them to play? Unfortunately, drum corps sound is directional.......if you want your face blown off, you don't sit in row 6 on the 10 yard line, you sit on the 50. I guess people like George Zingali and Steve Brubaker never designed their drills to impress the fans??? I do agree that corps spend an inordinate amount of time trying to perfect outrageous drills these days....I would rather have them spend more time on music and overall effect......If anything, many corps have missed the boat from a musical arranging standpoint in recent times....but all is not lost, as there are still some great musical shows being played, and musical entertainment in corps is showing signs of an upturn. However, I do agree that some arrangers and designers are more interested in getting a score and impressing a judge than they are an audience.....I do believe that DCI is now finally attempting to address this, and I don't think it will be totally successful until audience response is a factor in determining effect scores. Money killed more corps than anything. You can't legally take a group on the road today without serious insurance costs, even for a small corps. This legal requirement did not exist back in the 70's. Transportation costs today (fuel and vehicles) are extremely high. The days of a "neighborhood corps" jumping on a school bus and competing weekends only at shows within a 2 hour radius of home are over. Blaming DCI for every bad thing that ever happened in drum corps is not fair to the organization, nor does it accomplish anything positive. I agree with you it is far from perfect, they are not faultless, and there is always room for improvement, but I do believe those involved today are concerned with the future of the activity, and realize that improvements must be made if they wish to be around another 40 years.......... GB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldskl3rings Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Excuses, excuses, excuses. When DCI took over the activity the other organizations gradually dropped away. DCI’s attitude was the same as evolution…only the strong should survive. Instead DCI could of emphasized regional competitions. DCI could have then used the competitive aspect to foster local rivalries to build a local and fanatic fan base. With that would have come local support and participation. Then they could have sent the best of each region to fight for the international title. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bariman321 Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hopefully all those who think what you say are gone. Just like I hope you are. Go away from DCI. Don't want ya, certainly don't need ya! :worthy: :worthy: I'm glad someone thinks the same thing. :) when I'm old and hopefully DCI is still around, instead of being an old, grumpy, dinosaur that complains that no corps jazz run anymore or that back in my day amps and synths were the greatest, I'm going to support the activity, no matter what it becomes. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Excuses, excuses, excuses. When DCI took over the activity the other organizations gradually dropped away. DCI’s attitude was the same as evolution…only the strong should survive. Instead DCI could of emphasized regional competitions. DCI could have then used the competitive aspect to foster local rivalries to build a local and fanatic fan base. With that would have come local support and participation. Then they could have sent the best of each region to fight for the international title. you seem to not realise that local EVERYTHING died back then. Haveyou ever tried to get a rehearsal facility now a days? Most winter guards have to pay in excess of 15 grand a winter and thats not always a gym. The crummy little halls I practiced in back in the day couldnt hold the membership today. Schools dont give things away, noone does anything for nothing any more. You could survive on a shoe string back then .... not today, but that;'s in anything. Noone is making excuses , just looking at things realistically. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 you seem to not realise that local EVERYTHING died back then. Haveyou ever tried to get a rehearsal facility now a days? Most winter guards have to pay in excess of 15 grand a winter and thats not always a gym. The crummy little halls I practiced in back in the day couldnt hold the membership today. Schools dont give things away, noone does anything for nothing any more. You could survive on a shoe string back then .... not today, but that;'s in anything. Noone is making excuses , just looking at things realistically. Kinda on the same wavelength here. My thoughts are if DCI had run the local circuits we'd probably have the same number of corps we do now. IMO didn't matter who ran the circuits, about all the corps died off for other (internal) reasons. The Sr side in the 60s and 70s also had a horrible drop off in number of corps too. And all of the those circuits were regionally based. LOL, DCAs southern most corps until the 1980s was Baltimore, MD fer cryin' out loud. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 The consortium of corps governing drum corps is exactly what's wrong with the governing body. If you specifically mean running the "competition", I'm OK with that. But running the activity is not their place. Foxes meet hen-house. Who do you think should be running the activity? Asking because it's an interesting idea and not flaming here..... Have some ideas but will wait for your side first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 I don't know if it's fair to blame DCI for all of Drum Corps' woes. I know that there are many things in my life that I would like to go back and change if I could, but regret is the only option. Trying to build and support more Corps would seem like a logical approach, but it's much easier said than done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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