How Can DCI and Corps Engage us Next Couple Weeks?

[corpsband]

I'm wondering honestly who they hell they are trying to get rights from. We have corps playing Micheal Jackson, and Lady Gaga and you would think those rights would be the hardest to get and yet it appears that they got them easily??

So far that's just speculation. We don't actually know that rights are the reason BK hasn't announced. Maybe it is...and maybe they're just torquing DCP...

Besides didn't Wesley spill the beans in a thread somewhere (Firebird) ? If that's the case there shouldn't really be rights issues.

Edited May 25, 2012 by corpsband

[Quad Aces]

SCV announced a three year series too. And then -- it didn't happen. Staff moves around. What seemed like a good idea in year zero looks really bad in year 2. And did Madison have all three years laid out, music selected and cleared, blah blah blah ?? I doubt it. Having a three year "plan" is a far cry from getting rights 3 years in advance.

I don't think anyone "waits until the entire season is over" by design. Things didn't turn out great for the DVD but none of this stuff affected the live performance -- ESOM was pretty cool live. And I'm sure Madison's staff had a good faith belief that they'd get the sync rights well before the season ended. Sure it didn't work out but it's hardly the end of the world to have a few minutes blacked on a DVD (happens in WGI sometimes too) . I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

So for $119 a pop for the Blu-Ray of Finals and 3 corps out of 12 performances (25%) having issues where parts of their shows are blacked out isn't that big of a deal? I think that's pretty embarrassing actually (even considering that DCI put the disclaimer on the web page order form - still doesn't change what appears on the product).

Yes, "none of this stuff" affected the live performances, but that's only "ok" if everyone was able to see the live performances, which you're assuming with that statement. What about the people who order the videos because they are not able to go to any shows, and 25% of the performances on it are affected by rights issues? If that is their only way to view 2011, I wouldn't be too happy, especially if I were a Madison, Crown, or Cavaliers fan in that case.

"And I'm sure Madison's staff had a good faith belief that they'd get the sync rights well before the season ended" - really? How'd that work out for them?? Is that the smartest way of doing business?

I'd say this is a bigger deal than you are willing to admit, and If this happens in WGI as well, then I'd say they have a problem on their hands over there too...

Edited May 25, 2012 by Quad Aces

[Quad Aces]

case in point...the BD show announcement thread. I know i said I'd wait and see, as did others....but man, did people jump on it. Same for Cadets...look how many people are trashing 12/25 without seeing it live.

Criticism of a show concept really doesn't have anything to do with announcing a show early - it is going to happen whether a corps announces their show before the season starts or not, as not everyone will always like any given show. If a corps doesn''t announce their show, the criticism will just be delayed until after the first competition.

I still would never go see a movie without knowing the slightest bit of information about it, including the title. Why is it not a good idea for movie studios to do that, but it's ok here?

[corpsband]

"And I'm sure Madison's staff had a good faith belief that they'd get the sync rights well before the season ended" - really? How'd that work out for them?? Is that the smartest way of doing business?

I'd say this is a bigger deal than you are willing to admit, and If this happens in WGI as well, then I'd say they have a problem on their hands over there too...

AFAICT Madison had a pretty successful show that the crowd seemed to enjoy so I'd say it worked out pretty well for them.

It doesn't happen frequently in WGI and hasn't happened frequently in DCI.

If it starts happening frequently, I might be more inclined to call it a problem. Some of the issues last year were from samples (Crown/Cavies) -- only Madison had an actual performance piece affected. The sampling thing is relatively new tech for DCI and I'd expect corps who sample again to have a bit more awareness when doing so. Not sure corps were even concerned with sync rights in the past and now (I suspect) they're more aware.

In any case ---how big a deal was it? My guess it had very little impact on DVD sales.

By far the biggest impact was (and is) the increased DCP traffic!

[Quad Aces]

AFAICT Madison had a pretty successful show that the crowd seemed to enjoy so I'd say it worked out pretty well for them.

It doesn't happen frequently in WGI and hasn't happened frequently in DCI.

If it starts happening frequently, I might be more inclined to call it a problem. Some of the issues last year were from samples (Crown/Cavies) -- only Madison had an actual performance piece affected. The sampling thing is relatively new tech for DCI and I'd expect corps who sample again to have a bit more awareness when doing so. Not sure corps were even concerned with sync rights in the past and now (I suspect) they're more aware.

In any case ---how big a deal was it? My guess it had very little impact on DVD sales.

By far the biggest impact was (and is) the increased DCP traffic!

I wasn't even referring to a decrease in revenue from the video sales, but if that were the case, it makes it an even bigger deal. I said that this situation last year was embarrassing for all parties involved in the issue.

How ironic is it that music is a field that relies on copyrights not being infringed upon (we all have seen the ASCAP and BMI warnings on printed music that we've played before), and three corps didn't think that it would be a big deal if they didn't have ALL of their rights ducks in a row? I'm sure that all three of these corps (and DCI as well) would be pretty upset if someone used their product in ANY way without their full consent.

[corpsband]

How ironic is it that music is a field that relies on copyrights not being infringed upon (we all have seen the ASCAP and BMI warnings on printed music that we've played before), and three corps didn't think that it would be a big deal if they didn't have ALL of their rights ducks in a row? I'm sure that all three of these corps (and DCI as well) would be pretty upset if someone used their product in ANY way without their full consent.

The corps are responsible for obtaining permission to arrange / perform. These permissions were obtained. I don't think the corps "thought it wouldn't be a big deal" and I'm not sure why you're characterizing their behavior that way.

DCI was/is responsible for obtaining sync rights (they sell the DVD). They weren't able to negotiate a satisfactory arrangement for those rights (ie the copyright holders probably wanted more than DCI could afford / was willing to pay).

I'd imagine that everyone involved was disappointed that the DVDs needed those edits.

I also suspect that corps are going above and beyond now to try to ensure that it doesn't occur again.

But -- if you absolutely must rant -- I guess you can rant at DCI for failing to have the unlimited resources necessary to *always* purchase the sync rights.

This whole process -- even when there aren't problems -- is trial and error. There's no way to predict in advance what demands an artist, composer, or publisher or lawyer may demand. Even pieces that have been cleared in the past may fail to clear in the future. So you can accept that's the way things are or you can b#### and moan about it. I'm not sure what all the b####### will accomplish but hey if you feel better I'm sure we'll all sleep more soundly at night.

Getting back to Madison, I'm not sure there's another piece that would have substituted for ESOM. Artistically, conceptually, and musically it was the perfect fit (and it may have been the piece they built the rest of the show around -- not sure). Suppose Madison *had* known they would have problems with sync rights? Would they have scrapped a really good show just because the DVD might be affected? Not sure. I suppose if it were early enough in the process, they could have started over. But I for one am glad they used it. It was really cool. It fit. And it generated an emotional response in the audience that no other piece would have created.

Drum corps is a live performance art. It's not designed for the small screen. The DVDs are nice but they're not the same as being there and never will be. So -- to me at least -- given the chance to see Madison do that show live or never see it all, I'd choose the former!

Edited May 25, 2012 by corpsband

[Quad Aces]

The corps are responsible for obtaining permission to arrange / perform. These permissions were obtained. I don't think the corps "thought it wouldn't be a big deal" and I'm not sure why you're characterizing their behavior that way.

DCI was/is responsible for obtaining sync rights (they sell the DVD). They weren't able to negotiate a satisfactory arrangement for those rights (ie the copyright holders probably wanted more than DCI could afford / was willing to pay).

I'd imagine that everyone involved was disappointed that the DVDs needed those edits.

I also suspect that corps are going above and beyond now to try to ensure that it doesn't occur again.

But -- if you absolutely must rant -- I guess you can rant at DCI for failing to have the unlimited resources necessary to *always* purchase the sync rights.

This whole process -- even when there aren't problems -- is trial and error. There's no way to predict in advance what demands an artist, composer, or publisher or lawyer may demand. Even pieces that have been cleared in the past may fail to clear in the future. So you can accept that's the way things are or you can b#### and moan about it. I'm not sure what all the b####### will accomplish but hey if you feel better I'm sure we'll all sleep more soundly at night.

Getting back to Madison, I'm not sure there's another piece that would have substituted for ESOM. Artistically, conceptually, and musically it was the perfect fit (and it may have been the piece they built the rest of the show around -- not sure). Suppose Madison *had* known they would have problems with sync rights? Would they have scrapped a really good show just because the DVD might be affected? Not sure. I suppose if it were early enough in the process, they could have started over. But I for one am glad they used it. It was really cool. It fit. And it generated an emotional response in the audience that no other piece would have created.

Drum corps is a live performance art. It's not designed for the small screen. The DVDs are nice but they're not the same as being there and never will be. So -- to me at least -- given the chance to see Madison do that show live or never see it all, I'd choose the former!

I sleep just fine at night - thanks!

Perhaps then we should all start to make as many illegal copies of Madison's shows (both video and audio) and broadcast them all over the Internet and see what Madison's response would be - I'm guessing they and DCI would think it's a big deal.

If a corps would willingly use a piece that they knew there would be ANY kind of rights issues with, then that is a pretty arrogant approach to take, and I would hope that there would be litigation involved. Just pick another piece! Again, this activity tends to take itself way too seriously (as evidenced above in thinking that NO other piece in the entire universe of music could EVER have had the same effect in a show - who cares about a few copyright laws along the way that might be an issue??).

[corpsband]

I sleep just fine at night - thanks!

Perhaps then we should all start to make as many illegal copies of Madison's shows (both video and audio) and broadcast them all over the Internet and see what Madison's response would be - I'm guessing they and DCI would think it's a big deal.

If a corps would willingly use a piece that they knew there would be ANY kind of rights issues with, then that is a pretty arrogant approach to take, and I would hope that there would be litigation involved. Just pick another piece! Again, this activity tends to take itself way too seriously (as evidenced above in thinking that NO other piece in the entire universe of music could EVER have had the same effect in a show - who cares about a few copyright laws along the way that might be an issue??).

Actually everyone is complying with the copyright laws (thus the blanked/delete portions on the DVD) . Not sure where you're getting any indication that they didn't. So you're entirely off-base suggesting that the corps and/or DCI don't care about copyrights.

Sync rights are often negotiated on a case-by-case basis. It's not a binary choice (YES you can / NO you can't); it's a matter of dollars and cents. Only the guys who sell the DVDs can engage in that process. So your statement about "ANY kinds of rights issues" is just naive. Maybe you should be negotiating for DCI so that "every possible right" can be secured for every piece of music.

It's not like Madison *knew* a priori that ESOM would be an issue.

As for the choice of music, you think that Madison *knew* about other pieces of music that would work just as well and just ignored them? Really? And why exactly would they ignore those other options if they were available? I'm starting to doubt your statement about getting enough sleep at night.

Edited May 26, 2012 by corpsband

[Quad Aces]

Actually everyone is complying with the copyright laws (thus the blanked/delete portions on the DVD) . Not sure where you're getting any indication that they didn't. So you're entirely off-base suggesting that the corps and/or DCI don't care about copyrights.

Sync rights are often negotiated on a case-by-case basis. It's not a binary choice (YES you can / NO you can't); it's a matter of dollars and cents. Only the guys who sell the DVDs can engage in that process. So your statement about "ANY kinds of rights issues" is just naive. Maybe you should be negotiating for DCI so that "every possible right" can be secured for every piece of music.

It's not like Madison *knew* a priori that ESOM would be an issue.

As for the choice of music, you think that Madison *knew* about other pieces of music that would work just as well and just ignored them? Really? And why exactly would they ignore those other options if they were available? I'm starting to doubt your statement about getting enough sleep at night.

So ESOM was the ONLY possible choice that would work and they just couldn't bear to live without it?? Give me a freakin' break...

Edited May 26, 2012 by Quad Aces

[N.E. Brigand]

So ESOM was the ONLY possible choice that would work and they just couldn't bear to live without it?

Madison didn't have to "live without it": they had the rights to arrange and perform it. And DCI got the rights to audio-record that performance. Only the sync rights were pending -- and continued to be uncertain until well into the season. As I recall, Madison's executive director posted here sometime in July that the matter was still being negotiated. It would be entirely believable to me if the initial rights inquiry had been made six months earlier. Certainly I know of cases in my own profession (theatre) where requests have been made for song rights and at least that much time has passed before any response at all was forthcoming.

A question for anyone who might know: since it's DCI not the corps making the requests for recording and sync rights, do they set a date by which the corps must inform DCI of their selections, so that they can begin that process?