general_tsos_chicken2 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 A world where you can announce that your show is "about" something, but if you totally fail to make it be "about" what you said it was, it doesn't matter. Do you know any example in the real world that lines up with that protocol? If the activity's leaders want to program shows that are supposed to be representative of larger concepts, they should be held accountable to living up to their own hype. I agree with this, drum corps has changed so much in the last 10 years with being beaten over the face with concepts/stories etc. I just wish we went back to the programming of the late 90's early 00's where most corps just picked great music and maybe tied it with a subtle theme... but not over doing it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaseyW Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) I disagree. Here are a few examples of things that one corps did and then lots of corps did and/or things that became legal and were immediately picked up by lots of groups. In some cases, "every" group did it together or followed suit very quickly. In other cases, "more" groups did it, but not everybody. Either way, there was an increase in the usage of whatever was "new". Some of them were changes for the better. I would argue that some of them were not. Asymmetrical drill Multi-key horns Kevlar snare heads Drum "racks" (sometimes moving and spinning racks) and/or multiple drum sets Marching timpani Sideline pit instruments Synths Giant props (Red Poppy/Chess/etc.) Uniform/costume changes Dancing/calisthenics/horn flares Narration And ironically, what you cite as an example did happen. Look at Crown's and the Bluecoats' shows this year. They both have a good amount of geometrical drill, and they are neither the first nor only corps to attempt it. And I would argue that the Cavaliers' geometric drill was the direct descendant of the Cadets' "frantic drill", which was a direct descendant of SCV's asymmetric drill. Given time, I'll bet we could come up with a far longer list of "innovations" that were quickly or immediately adopted by lots of corps. The one that concerns me most is that since BD started "pushing the envelope" in 2008, a FEW (I recognize it is only a few) corps have followed suit, most recently, the Blue Knights show this year (IMHO). Is this a trend? It's too early to tell. Certainly, it isn't the tidal wave that many of the innovations on my list were, but the ramifications are far more serious. A&E ticked off a lot of people, mainly those of us who have been around a long time and enjoy a more traditional sound. I'm sure a few fans left when corps dropped the militaristic content, started marching beyond the sidelines, or added a pit. However, my experience with BD 2008, 2010, 2011, and 2012 is that people near me at performances have either not understood or flat out hated the shows. Maybe I need to sit with more diverse company, but I'm nervous that if the BD style catches on, there will be a lot of people who stop supporting Drum Corps. And it won't take 100% compliance to keep people at home. I know if 4 corps out of 8 were performing BD-style shows, I wouldn't drive 100 miles and pay $30 to see it. And if 4 out of 12 finalists adopt it, I'm not sure I would buy a $65 Fan Network pass or a $100 DVD to watch it. (The other 8 corps would have to be absolutely incredible.) Maybe I'm over-playing my point, but that's why I said potential long-term danger, not guaranteed death of DCI. I'm sounding the warning, not prophesying the demise. As I've said before, I would love to love the Blue Devils again, but I can't bring myself to enjoy the product they're currently putting on the field. As a piece of art is, you can't please everybody, and may I add - sometimes self satisfaction of your own art is as, if not more important, than satisfying their audience. If the Blue Devils, or the Blue Knights, or the Cavaliers, or Pioneer, or the Anaheim Kingsmen (I know they're not around), or who ever likes their own product (no matter how criticized it is), they will most likely keep what they believe is best for them. Rather they accept the fact that people aren't seeing their show is successful, crowd pleasing, or entertaining or not is up to them. Not everyone (in fact 99% of population(referring to a previous post of yours)) enjoyed Stravinsky's work the Rite of Spring (most even said it was distasteful) when it came out, but now there are so many people who call that their favorite orchestral work of all time. I believe that corps are finally getting the freedom to just express themselves how they want. I also love the variety of shows this year. Every show has its own personality. That in itself is as entertaining as a single show can be. Edited June 25, 2012 by kaseyW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinO Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I can appreciate the desire to be innovative. I see it happening every year with multiple corps. Why is it though that to reach the level of innovation and sofistication they desire, the Blue Devils must also alienate the vast majority of their audience? I don't see that this is necessary with the other corps. I appreciate imagination, but where is the imagination on their design staff to actually connect with an audience? Is it lacking? Or do they feel that isn't important anymore? I can certainly appreciate the performance level. I've gotten that since 1976 when I settled on them as my favorite corps. That lasted until the last few years when stylistically they became something other than what they used to be. I'm still in awe of the performance level, but it would be nice if they could be entertaining as well, instead of just good. Phantom2008, Cadets 2011, Cavaliers 2006 all show you don't need talking, you don't need a zillion props, and you don't need overly esoteric elitist themes to be innovative or win. Yes, I know there are those of you out there who love this stuff, but you are very much in the minority. The bottom line is the Blue Devils are losing fans. I hear it in the stands every time they perform one of these shows like this and it's getting worse and worse. And from what I can tell by the continuing product they are putting on the field, the design team apparently doesn't seem to care. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euph2008 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I agree - the Cavaliers of the early-mid 2000's did march quite a bit. However, the amount and quality of body movement/dance that BD brings to the table today is really astounding. In some ways, it is more difficult to achieve than traditional geometric or curvilinear drill, imo. Quite difficult to clean from individual to individual. And they do "march" quite a bit too, I think sometimes people get so caught up in pointing out the places where BD stands still that they miss the extremely difficult, high speed maneuvers throughout the show. For me standing still isn't the biggest problem with their visual. It's the fact that half of the time when they march it's in scatter drill with no defined shape. There was a couple cool spots but mostly it was a mess. I guess you can't knock off points when you don't know where the heck people are supposed to be. (and yes I know we don't use a tick system so points can't be knocked off but you get the idea.) call me old fashioned but I like my corps to actually make cool formations with their drill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I disagree. Here are a few examples of things that one corps did and then lots of corps did and/or things that became legal and were immediately picked up by lots of groups. In some cases, "every" group did it together or followed suit very quickly. In other cases, "more" groups did it, but not everybody. Either way, there was an increase in the usage of whatever was "new". Some of them were changes for the better. I would argue that some of them were not. Asymmetrical drill Multi-key horns Kevlar snare heads Drum "racks" (sometimes moving and spinning racks) and/or multiple drum sets Marching timpani Sideline pit instruments Synths Giant props (Red Poppy/Chess/etc.) Uniform/costume changes Dancing/calisthenics/horn flares Narration And ironically, what you cite as an example did happen. Look at Crown's and the Bluecoats' shows this year. They both have a good amount of geometrical drill, and they are neither the first nor only corps to attempt it. And I would argue that the Cavaliers' geometric drill was the direct descendant of the Cadets' "frantic drill", which was a direct descendant of SCV's asymmetric drill. Given time, I'll bet we could come up with a far longer list of "innovations" that were quickly or immediately adopted by lots of corps. The one that concerns me most is that since BD started "pushing the envelope" in 2008, a FEW (I recognize it is only a few) corps have followed suit, most recently, the Blue Knights show this year (IMHO). Is this a trend? It's too early to tell. Certainly, it isn't the tidal wave that many of the innovations on my list were, but the ramifications are far more serious. A&E ticked off a lot of people, mainly those of us who have been around a long time and enjoy a more traditional sound. I'm sure a few fans left when corps dropped the militaristic content, started marching beyond the sidelines, or added a pit. However, my experience with BD 2008, 2010, 2011, and 2012 is that people near me at performances have either not understood or flat out hated the shows. Maybe I need to sit with more diverse company, but I'm nervous that if the BD style catches on, there will be a lot of people who stop supporting Drum Corps. And it won't take 100% compliance to keep people at home. I know if 4 corps out of 8 were performing BD-style shows, I wouldn't drive 100 miles and pay $30 to see it. And if 4 out of 12 finalists adopt it, I'm not sure I would buy a $65 Fan Network pass or a $100 DVD to watch it. (The other 8 corps would have to be absolutely incredible.) Maybe I'm over-playing my point, but that's why I said potential long-term danger, not guaranteed death of DCI. I'm sounding the warning, not prophesying the demise. As I've said before, I would love to love the Blue Devils again, but I can't bring myself to enjoy the product they're currently putting on the field. Looks like everyone is juxtaposing music together this year. I wonder who started that chop and boppedness? I mean, EVERY corps.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesBry Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Looks like everyone is juxtaposing music together this year. I wonder who started that chop and boppedness? I mean, EVERY corps.... Another good example. I have seen shows where it worked well, but I've seen many where it didn't. You're right about the number of people doing it, though. Anyone who thinks there are no lemmings in DCI is unfortunately fooling themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplattSCV Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 A world where you can announce that your show is "about" something, but if you totally fail to make it be "about" what you said it was, it doesn't matter. Do you know any example in the real world that lines up with that protocol? Whoever made the world's first quiche is an example of this I am sure. They tried to make an omelette and screwed it up horribly. But, it worked anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 I can appreciate the desire to be innovative. I see it happening every year with multiple corps. Why is it though that to reach the level of innovation and sofistication they desire, the Blue Devils must also alienate the vast majority of their audience? I don't see that this is necessary with the other corps. I appreciate imagination, but where is the imagination on their design staff to actually connect with an audience? Is it lacking? Or do they feel that isn't important anymore? I can certainly appreciate the performance level. I've gotten that since 1976 when I settled on them as my favorite corps. That lasted until the last few years when stylistically they became something other than what they used to be. I'm still in awe of the performance level, but it would be nice if they could be entertaining as well, instead of just good. Phantom2008, Cadets 2011, Cavaliers 2006 all show you don't need talking, you don't need a zillion props, and you don't need overly esoteric elitist themes to be innovative or win. Yes, I know there are those of you out there who love this stuff, but you are very much in the minority. The bottom line is the Blue Devils are losing fans. I hear it in the stands every time they perform one of these shows like this and it's getting worse and worse. And from what I can tell by the continuing product they are putting on the field, the design team apparently doesn't seem to care. how do you get these statistics on BD..lol..yeah yeah I know you heard it here or the people around you at a show..lol..people act like big props were just invented..news flash they were used quite a while ago ..and large ones......stylistically do corps need to stay the same forever because we may be used to it? Couldnt corps mix it up. I actually thought BD last year sound wise was a good throw back to the big full sound............There are still alot of BD fans out there and many many kids running to join every year, obviously they have 3 corps. Now Im not a fan but it has nothing to do with their shows..just thought I would throw that in so noone thought I was a Homer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 The problem isn't the Devils. They're doing what they want to do and they do it extremely well, God love 'em.The problem is that there's no one in the judging community who has the ability or courage to call them on thematic inconsistencies, and that the new sheets don't do anything to force judges into moving in that direction. If corps had to pay a price for announcing that their show was "about" something when the real product turned out to be a failure in actually achieving its thematic intent, you'd force the design teams into making sure that conceptual clarity was key to what they're doing, rather than having this little incestuous world where the designers tell the judges what they're doing to achieve the concept, and the judges just buy into it. Why should judges "call" them on those things? It makes zero difference what is published about a show. The judges are evaluating what is played and marched and spun on the field. The sheets make, as you noted, no attempt at tying a score to a written blurb. Any judge who did have the "courage" to try and do such a comparison should not be judging any more shows, given the current sheets. Surely you're both right, in part? What the corps chooses to say about the show away from the field should be irrelevant -- unless competitions still include those meetings introduced a couple years ago in which the corps staff explain to the judges their thematic intent. The title announced before the show should be taken into consideration by the judges, but only in a small way: lots of otherwise good books, films, albums, etc. have unsatisfactory titles but are not deemed failures thereby. In the case of this year's Blue Devils show specifically, surely the narration-sampling within the show itself is meant to convey the theme, and the judges are free to use that information to decide how well the show supports that theme. But has anyone else noticed that some of the narration actually sounds critical of the Dada movement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinO Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 how do you get these statistics on BD..lol..yeah yeah I know you heard it here or the people around you at a show..lol..people act like big props were just invented..news flash they were used quite a while ago ..and large ones......stylistically do corps need to stay the same forever because we may be used to it? Couldnt corps mix it up. I actually thought BD last year sound wise was a good throw back to the big full sound............There are still alot of BD fans out there and many many kids running to join every year, obviously they have 3 corps. Now Im not a fan but it has nothing to do with their shows..just thought I would throw that in so noone thought I was a Homer. I realize very well the big props have been around a while. When they actually add to the show I have no problem with them ("Through a Glass Darkly"). When they become a distraction or an obstacle I do ("The Beat My Heart Skipped"). But my biggest gripe with the props and with any corps that uses them, is the amount of time spent rearranging them on the field when they could be performing. That's what happened in the Blue Devil show last year. The props added little to nothing and they spent too much time stopping to move them around. I'm also not asking corps to stay the same forever because we're used to it. I'm just asking that corps realize there is an audience out there who would like to enjoy their shows. When they are becoming so esoteric that the feedback to the corps is letting them know they are not reaching the audience or that their shows are not liked because of something they are doing, they should take that into account the following year. George Hopkins seems to have gotten the message the last three years with the microphones and put good shows on the field again that everyone likes. I've listened to the Cadet complaints in the stands come to a stop. It's time the Blue Devils listened as well. Also, I've lodged the same complaints against other corps that clutter up the field with distractions and overused the microphones or electronics. Like another post I saw, electronics, voice, and props should be used as condiments. They should not become the costars of the show. I find this particularly true for the Blue Devils. Their talent level is so high because of the pool they can draw from, and their performance level is so high, why should they let ANYTHING distract from the heart of the corps; perennial top tier horns, drums, and guard. Of all the corps out there looking for help to push them over the top, the Blue Devils are the last ones who need it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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