For Dinosaurs Only

[BRASSO]

Nobody on this board could hear the words hobby horse, and not think of that show.

Why not ? I thought of Jersey Surf.

[BRASSO]

please introduce me to that "average fan" of which you speak, I sure as hell hope he doesn't wear madras shorts, street shoes with black socks and a pork pie hat!

We don't have any of these clothed fans in the stands that I've been at. ' Havn't seen this outfit yet in Guard either by the way. (although it could be said that the 2010 Cadets " Geoffrey " came pretty darn close to your depiction here with his " madras shorts" and his goofy "hat" anyway, and at the end of the show , we are told he makes it into the Corps line with a spot If I recall correctly. )

Edited September 6, 2012 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

Try this.....Take away all forms of communication from all judges for the entire season. No laptop, no cell phone, no homephone. Keep them sequestered. Take them to their contest, hand them their materials and let them judge by what they see and hear on that night. No reference from past contests to look at and let them work the boxes they way they were intended. Give a corps a score BASED on the reference criteria and have their worksheets taken from them after each corps so they can't remember what they gave a corps. Do this all season long. Would we see shifts and maybe better competitions throughout the year?

I know this could never happen but wouldn't this be more of a fair way to judge a contest? Now for all you more intelligent than I people...slam away!

then they go off tour, can see recaps, get/make calls etc.

so really, what changes?

People seem to think there's this great judge conspiracy and they all talk and go into collusion together to keep people down.

that's also ########

[Jeff Ream]

and some shows....(not saying one way or another about BD this year) BUT many times in the past some corps and shows are so good that who cares whats its about...this has happened often through the years and this is also a tribute to great writing and great training of the members.Yes its very possible..........now if somme thinks or doesnt think this years winner falls into this is up for debate ( as usual ) and an opinion......pssttttt...lol..i also remember a time when the word ELITE was a great thing in this activity and people admired and looked up to those considered ELITE...just a statement...im not going back to the who did what to who and whos the blame game...lol

I am just syaing looking at their show, and seeing the new GE sheet, this show as designed and performed was way too heavy on one part of the triad, and didn't deliver based on the criteria to match the numbers it received

[Jeff Ream]

And we're back to "BD shouldn't have won".

Again, you're getting back into a pretty narrow minded concept of what is effective. BD was incredibly effective from an intellectual point of view. It literally made me go home and do research on Dada, because I wanted to understand what they were doing better. The hobby horses may not have been an esthetic you liked, but you can't sit there and tell me that they weren't effective. We're sitting here talking about them aren't we? Nobody on this board could hear the words hobby horse, or hula hoop and not think of that show. That's aesthetic effect. And again, maybe the show wasn't goose bump emotional, but it certainly contained plenty of emotional content, ranging from confusion to wonder to anger to laughter etc. The issue I see from an emotional effect standpoint is that a lot of the emotional effect was tied up in the intellectual side of the show. The more you understood, the more emotion you got from it. So if you didn't get, or weren't interested in the intellectual side of the show, it didn't seem effective.

actually I think BD should have won....but not GE.Hate to ruin that assumption you made.

actually the horses, IMO were distracting. so was the uniform changes.So was the narration.

[Jeff Ream]

It depends on how you define "emotional"...there are all kinds of emotions: memory/reflective emotions, inspirational/uplifting emotions, spiritual emotions, etc. yet, if you go to a Cirque show, you will experience wonder and surprise and even some amazement, you'll smile, ooh and ahh and sometimes simply shake your head. All the time, there may be no definitive emotion (or even a direction) but your might experience sheer visual engagement, stimulated by their always odd and perfectly matched soundtracks.

So...........is it is a requirement to be emotionally engaged?....not for me! Is it a requirement to satisfy some retro connection to DC past?....not for me! Is there some requirement to link the music and visual in a manner easily recognized and memorable?.....not for me! Perhaps for you. Oh, and BTW....when you get around to it, please introduce me to that "average fan" of which you speak, I sure as hell hope he doesn't wear madras shorts, street shoes with black socks and a pork pie hat!

I dont see making many fans reach for their program or cellphone engaging

[Plan9]

We don't have any of these clothed fans in the stands that I've been at. ' Havn't seen this outfit yet in Guard either by the way. (although it could be said that the 2010 Cadets " Geoffrey " came pretty darn close to your depiction here with his " madras shorts" and his goofy "hat" anyway, and at the end of the show , we are told he makes it into the Corps line with a spot If I recall correctly. )

Yes, good catch... "Geoffrey" is the image......the only thing missing is a pocket protector, that says "McKay's Heating and Air Conditioning"

[Lead]

You know what I think would go a long way to reconnecting some of those who marched more than 20 years ago? Do more retreats - not every show, but several per season. Corps should fly the colors, and then they could demonstrate proper respect for the audience by all being present and honorable while they receive recognition. The good news is that both of those things wouldn't cost a single second of artistic freedom on the show field, and they would go a long way in bringing back some of the traditions that have some shared social value. We all know that every corps has its own internal traditions, but sharing something traditional with the audience can't hurt at all.

Now, I know the arguments against retreat. This is not a debate about that for me. Weigh the pros and cons again, find some middle ground and give it a try.

We had this discussion this summer at Minneapolis about why no one stays around for the scores (because they can get them on Twitter), and my response was that they need to bring back retreat!!! :) As a FAN, definitely the highlight of the night, regardless of who performed.

Not to mention that from my years of marching, most of my favorite stories are about things that happened either during retreat or while waiting for retreat :)

[Lead]

As for your contention that things got changed up when the judges couldn't see the recap from the night before, the two shows in which those scores weren't announced were Akron and Louisville. In Akron, the corps finished in the following order:

Cadets

Phantom Regiment

Crown

Bluecoats

Cavaliers

Blue Stars

The next show, in Louisville, the results were:

Crown

Cadets

Bluecoats

Cavaliers

Blue Stars

Not exactly major changes from night to night. Interestingly enough, the order of those 6 corps was pretty consistent throughout the rest of the season. Nobody went from first to fourth, nor did the placements change drastically after those two shows.

FYI, 6 of the 8 judges on those panels judged both shows, stayed in the same hotel, rode in the van together, etc.

[garfield]

It depends on how you define "emotional"...there are all kinds of emotions: memory/reflective emotions, inspirational/uplifting emotions, spiritual emotions, etc. yet, if you go to a Cirque show, you will experience wonder and surprise and even some amazement, you'll smile, ooh and ahh and sometimes simply shake your head. All the time, there may be no definitive emotion (or even a direction) but your might experience sheer visual engagement, stimulated by their always odd and perfectly matched soundtracks.

So...........is it is a requirement to be emotionally engaged?....not for me! Is it a requirement to satisfy some retro connection to DC past?....not for me! Is there some requirement to link the music and visual in a manner easily recognized and memorable?.....not for me! Perhaps for you. Oh, and BTW....when you get around to it, please introduce me to that "average fan" of which you speak, I sure as hell hope he doesn't wear madras shorts, street shoes with black socks and a pork pie hat!

[Extends hand. "Hi, I'm an average fan"]

But only because it's you Plan.

You need to expect, my friend, that it's YOU who is not average. I don't have any definitive evidence, but I'd be willing to bet that a majority of fans think differently, and commonly, about many of the items you listed.

For instance, I don't go into a show expecting anything at all - I let the show reveal itself. But I do want it to make sense - maybe that's a reflection of my personality. "Structure" seems important to my enjoyment level. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed BD this year, even when it's goal was to make sense showing that it made no sense. They did that well. But I enjoy shows that make sense in both visual and musical together, as one package. Is it a requirement? No, I have no requirements. But I like shows that somehow give a hat-tip to the roots of our niche, whether it's Madison's retro, or reprising Spartacus, and I appreciate them more than a Dada-esque show no matter how well it's played. And I'm not talking about 23 Surf shows; I surely don't want that. It could even be as simple as trooping the stands at every show to drum cadence, salutes, and horns-down. It could be Conquest. Anything, big or small.

Anyway, I think more fans think like me than like you, but it's just my hunch. (My Dad always said "There's the right way, the wrong way, and Dan's way" so I accept that it could actually be me who's way off track.)

And I wear flip-flops when I'm not wearing wing-tips.

Edited September 6, 2012 by garfield