audiodb Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I'm suggesting that nobody is qualified to make the same distinction that 8 separate people are paid to make in fragments. There's a reason the sheets are split into captions. Its hard enough for one judge to properly evaluate his own caption. There is, in fact, a lot of conversation on this board about that very subject, and whether or not some captions should have more than one judge. So yes. To the level of detail needed to make a determination that one group should be ahead of another based on performance quality from one night to the next, nobody is qualified to judge 8 captions on a single read. Do you really disagree? Since I'm not being paid for my opinions, I guess you're right, then. No, one day is not enough to prove a trend. That's not a difference of opinion we have. That's a fact. Oh, OK. Your opinions are facts, and mine are not. Got it! Of course "one day" is not a trend. The trend is what happens the rest of the season. (By the way, the "one day" you refer to is actually four days....the opening weekends of 2011 and 2012.) The problem is, you're making suggestions/allegations that the judging community at large are incapable of judging without being influenced by the previous nights results. No. They are fully capable of judging....but at times, they are influenced by the latest results. Are you contending that they never are? As for the Crossmen example, they hadn't beaten Blue Stars once all year. If the judges are truly so influenced by the recaps, why would they all of a sudden close a 2 point gap in 2 days and make it into finals? It was four days....and IMO, the move they made on the score sheets corresponded to what happened on the field. From what I've read, other fans in the stands saw things that way too. No controversy there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 and conversely many are happy with multiples. It's a big world, and surprisingly one or two (or several) people's opinions do not equal the end all/be all consensus of what's best for the activity well if attendanceisn't really growing, I'd say there's something to look at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Since I'm not being paid for my opinions, I guess you're right, then. Oh, OK. Your opinions are facts, and mine are not. Got it! Of course "one day" is not a trend. The trend is what happens the rest of the season. (By the way, the "one day" you refer to is actually four days....the opening weekends of 2011 and 2012.) No. They are fully capable of judging....but at times, they are influenced by the latest results. Are you contending that they never are? It was four days....and IMO, the move they made on the score sheets corresponded to what happened on the field. From what I've read, other fans in the stands saw things that way too. No controversy there. It has nothing to do with being paid for your opinions. It has to do with somehow managing to keep up with 8 separate captions, with completely separate criteria in real time. People complain on a daily basis that the judges aren't catching everything in their single caption. You mean to tell me that a fan can catch everything in 8 full captions? Why is DCI paying 8 people to do 1 person's job then? No, the simple concept of statistical analysis, and the fact that your example wouldn't hold up to those standards is a fact, not my opinion. If you'd like me to dig up quotes from data analysis text books, I can do that. I'm not opining here. I'm pointing out that the evidence you have given to support your argument doesn't really do much to support your argument. And we've already narrowed that four day field down. Crown moving up one placement hardly can be considered a significant move. But ok. Have it your way (despite the fact that I've given you plenty of examples of the same thing happening during the regular season). We'll count Crown changing placement once in the first weekend. It still wouldn't be enough to be considered a meaningful argument. And yes, Crossmen's move would seem to correspond to what happened on the field by all accounts. But according to your argument, that shouldn't happen because the judges are too influenced by the recaps from the night before for those kinds of things to happen. I'm contending that the professionals in the field are far less likely to be influenced by the previous night's results than you or I, as that is what they do for a living. I'm also contending that there is no evidence to support the suggestion that they are influenced. You on the other hand, contend that the influence of the previous night's scores are the "trend". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) well if attendanceisn't really growing, I'd say there's something to look at. but to be honest IMO ( not trying to be confrontational) . I justdon't buy some of the reasons some think ) to actually believe attendace is down for design reasons as majority of older fans leaving to me is head in the sand. There are many many reasons people have left from the beginning of the activity and design choice and changes have always been a part of it but even back then its an easy out...blame whoever and dont look at ALL the possible reasons and there are many and also many that drum corps has NO control over. As far as growing...thats another area that blurs...maybe DCI thinks it should just target 1 kind of audience instead of all ( which could be wrong ) although most businesses do decide WHAT their target audience is or what they want it to be Edited September 7, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 but to be honest IMO ( not trying to be confrontational) . I justdon't buy some of the reasons some think ) to actually believe attendace is down for design reasons as majority of older fans leaving to me is head in the sand. There are many many reasons people have left from the beginning of the activity and design choice and changes have always been a part of it but even back then its an easy out...blame whoever and dont look at ALL the possible reasons and there are many and also many that drum corps has NO control over. As far as growing...thats another area that blurs...maybe DCI thinks it should just target 1 kind of audience instead of all ( which could be wrong ) although most businesses do decide WHAT their target audience is or what they want it to be if fans are saying they don't like show designs....and they are.....that's a reason. it's one that helped prompt Cesario to do his thing, which to be honest, is still a work in progress. Indy and the dome/roof, well that's a different reason thatapplies to just 3 shows. yes the economy hurts too, but....as DCI has weathered bad economies before...if the product is appealing enough, you'll find the way to get there.Hence the problem.....it hasn't been appealing enough to many fans. Especially those numerous Friends members that stopped donating. You can try and spin it however you want, the on field product is still the #1 issue with fans leaving. if the price is too much for the amount you feel entertained, you stop going. And people are....and DCI knows it. Some there care. Some don't give a ####. Some that don't give a #### only care if it's them and 6 friends at the party anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) if fans are saying they don't like show designs....and they are.....that's a reason. it's one that helped prompt Cesario to do his thing, which to be honest, is still a work in progress. Indy and the dome/roof, well that's a different reason thatapplies to just 3 shows. yes the economy hurts too, but....as DCI has weathered bad economies before...if the product is appealing enough, you'll find the way to get there.Hence the problem.....it hasn't been appealing enough to many fans. Especially those numerous Friends members that stopped donating. You can try and spin it however you want, the on field product is still the #1 issue with fans leaving. if the price is too much for the amount you feel entertained, you stop going. And people are....and DCI knows it. Some there care. Some don't give a ####. Some that don't give a #### only care if it's them and 6 friends at the party anyway and all those reasons you give , and could be true...are the same reasons many left in the 70s...80s and 90s and now..its always had people who felt that way always...as far as Michael...i know this man well and I said back when everyone was singining praises...he, like many are politicians, I'll leave it at that BUT I also have heard him say hundreds of times....everyone thinks they are a xxxxin designer and know a better way..how does that fit into the whole fan friendly statement...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Im not faulting him at all BUT to think he or anyone is going to please everyone is nuts...will never happen as it never was. corps will do what they do with fan influence and some without..that also has always been a part of it Edited September 7, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiodb Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 And yes, Crossmen's move would seem to correspond to what happened on the field by all accounts. But according to your argument, that shouldn't happen because the judges are too influenced by the recaps from the night before for those kinds of things to happen. This will never end as long as you keep twisting my words into strawmen like this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 and all those reasons you give , and could be true...are the same reasons many left in the 70s...80s and 90s and now..its always had people who felt that way always...as far as Michael...i know this man well and I said back when everyone was singining praises...he, like many are politicians, I'll leave it at that BUT I also have heard him say hundreds of times....everyone thinks they are a xxxxin designer and know a better way..how does that fit into the whole fan friendly statement...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Im not faulting him at all BUT to think he or anyone is going to please everyone is nuts...will never happen as it never was. corps will do what they do with fan influence and some without..that also has always been a part of it everyone? impossible. more than have been happy?Possible.However,IMO, porgramming took a step backfrom 11 in 2012. Where was it most noticable? 13-25th place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) everyone? impossible. more than have been happy?Possible.However,IMO, porgramming took a step backfrom 11 in 2012. Where was it most noticable? 13-25th place. i agree I didnt care for as many shows in top 12 as I did last year BUT as I have said I remember bitd years like that also...even some corps playing the same same smae year after year..BUT I think thats what happens year to year . I liked many 13-17 better this year..not that any of them should have been higher but next year like in 2011 it could all change...thats whats great about a corps having the freedom to do what they choose....keep diversity in our activity! you also missed the point ( or not ) doesnt matter if he says all, most everyone. Edited September 7, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) if fans are saying they don't like show designs....and they are.....that's a reason. it's one that helped prompt Cesario to do his thing, which to be honest, is still a work in progress. Michael Cesario would have been so much better served if he simply left out his remarks that the new judging sheets would provide more clout to shows that " really engaged the audience ". Or else he should have defined " engage " in a different manner than the conventionally understood manner that would leave fans with what most would assume to be a pleasuable acceptance. While its true that a car accident on the highway does " engage " bypassers and generates interest and curiosity, I don't belive that most fans were thinking " keeps our interest and curiousity " when they were thinking of shows " engaging the audience well " and this would be reflected in the new sheets, presumably over Corps shows that comparatively did not " engage the audience " quite as well. From my perspective, I have seen little to no effect on placements or scores from the older sheets replaced. Which begs the question, why all the ( pardon the bad pun ) hoopla re. the introduction of the new sheets ? In retrospect, Cesaria should have simply said " the new sheets will have no change at all re. audience reception, or lack of resception to the shows. Fans won't be involved on these new judging sheets any more than they have ever have been.. These sheets are an internal matter in hopes of making it easier for judges to understand the terms and criteria better." THAT would have been more honest, direct... and most importantly, more accurate as to the audience " engagement " with the shows. If DCI is not careful they run the risk of when it comes to going to future shows, fans will think " No, I have another " engagement " that seems to fit my schedule a bit better ". Edited September 7, 2012 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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