For Dinosaurs Only

[audiodb]

The point is, a show doesn't have to get a huge standing ovation to be effective, and just because a show got a huge standing ovation doesn't mean it was well designed or executed. Please reference Jersey Surf as an example.

So to use one of your favorite words....you are insinuating Jersey Surf had poor design?

And no, I'm not saying that Jersey Surf's show was poorly designed. However, it was not as well designed from an effect standpoint as some others, because again, emotional reaction isn't the entire sheet.

I see. Well, then, what should they have done differently?

[garfield]

actucker, I appreciate your descriptions and I'm trying only a little to be compative. I'd like for you to simplify and clarify...

If I understand your point then, simply, if the program that is designed to silence the crowd and make them cry, instead, makes them stand up and throw babies, they get a low effect score. Do I understand that correctly?

And that a moment that is designed to make them throw babies but, instead, makes them sit on their hands gets low effect scores, right?

Or are you suggesting that whether or not the crowd reacts as the corps expected is not considered in the effect score at all?

I want to state BS to most of your explanation but, because I'm not expert on the sheets, I really want to understand your point before I flap my gums.

[actucker]

actucker, I appreciate your descriptions and I'm trying only a little to be compative. I'd like for you to simplify and clarify...

If I understand your point then, simply, if the program that is designed to silence the crowd and make them cry, instead, makes them stand up and throw babies, they get a low effect score. Do I understand that correctly?

And that a moment that is designed to make them throw babies but, instead, makes them sit on their hands gets low effect scores, right?

Or are you suggesting that whether or not the crowd reacts as the corps expected is not considered in the effect score at all?

I want to state BS to most of your explanation but, because I'm not expert on the sheets, I really want to understand your point before I flap my gums.

Obviously its hard to be absolutely certain what the intended effect is without talking to the designers. Just as it is difficult to be absolutely sure what an author might have meant when describing a moment in a book through metaphor. However, a good judge can discern the things on the sheets based upon how unified the presentation of the product is. If a show was designed to make the crowd cry, and instead they are throwing babies, I think you can say, from a design perspective, it failed in its objective. That doesn't necessarily keep the show from having effect.

Again, the sheets don't necessarily dictate or require knowledge of intended effect. They only seek to discern if there is, in fact effect. My point is, simply, that effect, as it is defined by the sheets is not the same thing as many seem to think. What effect a show has is of little or no concern to the sheets, or the judges. Their concern is only that there is effect, and that that effect is portrayed consistently from performer to performer. Plenty of folks would disagree with that philosophy, and there are plenty of compelling arguments to that effect. That doesn't change what the sheets say.

[actucker]

So to use one of your favorite words....you are insinuating Jersey Surf had poor design?

I see. Well, then, what should they have done differently?

What should they have done differently? Or what could they have done differently based on the members they had? Do you really think that if Jersey Surf had attempted the show that, say, Cadets was performing they would have had a chance at achieving it? That's not to slam Jersey Surf. They simply have a younger membership to draw from, and thus what they design has to account for that. A group like Cadets, or Crown or Blue Devils don't really have that issue.

[corpsband]

Not minimal crowd reaction. Different crowd reaction.

You're the one who said minimal -- not me.

A really well designed show can get exactly the effect the designers are looking for and create a minimal reaction from the crowd.

Are you withdrawing your original statement?

Again, baby throwing isn't the only kind of reaction possible.

Umm...straw man. Where exactly did I say it was? AFAICS no one has said that every effect moment of every show should generate baby throwing. Please quote the message where this claim is made.

[audiodb]

What should they have done differently? Or what could they have done differently based on the members they had? Do you really think that if Jersey Surf had attempted the show that, say, Cadets was performing they would have had a chance at achieving it? That's not to slam Jersey Surf. They simply have a younger membership to draw from, and thus what they design has to account for that. A group like Cadets, or Crown or Blue Devils don't really have that issue.

Well, that's why I asked. Jersey Surf 2012 didn't have the kind of talent/experience of those top 3 you mentioned, so they made design choices based on what they did have. In fact, to accomplish what they did in terms of designed effect = achieved effect, working within their abilities, would suggest to me that they made some very clever design choices.

If you were merely pointing out that those top-3 corps deserve better GE scores than Jersey Surf (largely because of the plethora of higher-scoring design choices they have available to them due to that higher talent level)....no argument there.

[actucker]

You're the one who said minimal -- not me.

Are you withdrawing your original statement?

Umm...straw man. Where exactly did I say it was? AFAICS no one has said that every effect moment of every show should generate baby throwing. Please quote the message where this claim is made.

Probably not my best choice of words. Sorry. The discussion on the table is regarding what effect really is, and how much that has to do with raw emotional reaction from the crowd. The conversation I've been having with several others is that crowd reaction, as it is typically characterized (baby throwing, standing ovations, loud cheering etc) is not the only result of an effective show. Again, not every show is designed to get that kind of reaction, nor should it be in my opinion. As I said before, 12 shows that are built for the same reaction would be boring.

[actucker]

Well, that's why I asked. Jersey Surf 2012 didn't have the kind of talent/experience of those top 3 you mentioned, so they made design choices based on what they did have. In fact, to accomplish what they did in terms of designed effect = achieved effect, working within their abilities, would suggest to me that they made some very clever design choices.

If you were merely pointing out that those top-3 corps deserve better GE scores than Jersey Surf (largely because of the plethora of higher-scoring design choices they have available to them due to that higher talent level)....no argument there.

Clever design choices to be sure, but again, they are more limited than others. That being said, that example was made to specifically point out that a show that got a bigger ovation than another wasn't necessarily a more effective show.

[HockeyDad]

Stunned silence is a pretty meaningful reaction, albeit not the traditional baby throwing.

What's the difference between stunned silence and disgusted silence?

[HockeyDad]

I have a newfound understanding of "effect." Cheering, loud clapping, golf clapping, silence, booing, mouth open catching flies, are all effect. Apparently the only thing that's not effect would be dropping dead in the stands, although that's probably effect too.