garfield Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) both can..whoever does it better...and measured by criteria not just the emotion of a crowd that could or couldn't be making noise based on several things that could be a reason for applause..and all of which could have nothing to do with if the corps was good or not or even effective or not...that happens all the time.( no Im not mentioning which corps and start a firestorm . ) One of the things that bothers me about this argument is that fans are oafs who will clap at anything, or not clap for any good reason. Isn't a drum corps crowd, generally, pretty sophisticated about show presentation compared to, say, a typical HS band crowd? Isn't a drum corps crowd, typically, a more real and true reflection of what's on the field than this argument suggests? Further, what if a crowd screams at the right point in the show but for reasons different than what the designers intended? Does it still score high effect? Or can a good judge discern the reason the crowd is roaring and not award effect because it wasn't for the reasons the designers intended? Edited September 10, 2012 by garfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I think this is a really long way of saying.... the judges ignore the crowd. I agree with that completely. sometimes that can be true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skevinp Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I think this is a really long way of saying.... the judges ignore the crowd. I agree with that completely. Judges probably should ignore the specific crowd in assessing the corps, but it is better for the activity if DCI does not ignore the fans in general in creating the criteria the judges will judge on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) One of the things that bothers me about this argument is that fans are oafs who will clap at anything, or not clap for any good reason. Isn't a drum corps crowd, generally, pretty sophisticated about show presentation compared to, say, a typical HS band crowd? Isn't a drum corps crowd, typically, a more real and true reflection of what's on the field than this argument suggests? drum corps crowds are loyal, bias,educated, some not so much. Many love nostaglia ( good or not ) want new winners...hate change....love change....crowds can be a huge mix of sophisticated as well as those who clap for the anything as long as its NOT ABand C in their books as to your other question....IF a judge reacts to screams ( which can or cant mean anything ) designers will always lean to the side of .." Great glad you liked that " noone tells a judge OH Im not sure why you reacted well there? Why would they. Edited September 10, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I've been reading the thread :-) A design which the general audience can't follow is IMHO a failure. It makes no difference if the "educated elite" understand and appreciate your masterpiece if grandma can't understand at it all. There needs to be an underlying logic to your visual and musical choices that allows the uninitiated viewer to understand your programming even if they miss every single other layer you've written into the production. FMPOV the effect judge is sort of the audience's elected representative. He may recognize and reward those deeper layers in your show, but if and only if those layers are part of a design which has captured and maintained the attention of the audience. If the general audience is confused by your production, if you've lost their attention and interest, if you fail to elicit an emotional response, the rest of those layers are irrelevant because you've failed in your primary responsibility: to take the audience with you wherever you decide to go. That fundamental layer -- "Oh, *I* get it" -- must be present before the rest of the stuff gets any credit at all. Does that mean an audience favorite should always win effect? Absolutely not. There are definitely "home town" crowds. Heck there are "dead" crowds which seem to be unmoved by any performance. Is the judge supposed to magically read the audience's collective mind? No. We're just kind of trusting the GE judge to always react honestly as an average audience member might react. It's not a perfect solution but it's the least offensive option that's available. It seems to me that many on DCP feel this trust has been violated, that perhaps judges are not even attempting to react as an average audience member might react. GE is problematic concept. But without it you risk encouraging shows which might be technically/artistically proficient but leave the audience with a blank look on their face. That's NOT a good thing for an activity that ultimately relies on people buying tickets. Isn't this second half of your excellent explanation at odds with actucker's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Isn't this second half of your excellent explanation at odds with actucker's? I think so. I think atucker believes that audience doesn't matter at all and I certainly disagree. Where we agree is that directly measuring the audience is probably not a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie1223 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Effect should be pretty much "did you enjoy the effect elicited from the corps". They could sadness, fear, intellectual etc. but if the audience did not enjoy the ride then the show is ineffective. after all, math can be enjoyable, history, avant guard, even a show testing limits of musical and visual enjoyment can be "enjoyable" from a purely intellectual way for those that want to be tested . Every production wants people to "enjoy" themselves no matter how dark, convoluted, or esoteric the production. Enjoyment does not come just from loud and fast. Drum corps fans ( like an other art appreciates) can gain satisfaction from a number of different moods/methods. If a corps wants to be intellectual and avant guard that is great! But they need to make the crowd enjoy the ride. The crowd will "give it up" if they felt a strong intellectual connection to their show and design. If not, they won't. What's the point of pushing limits and be "different" if you can't find a way to hook people instantly? It is a challenge and many corps shows only gain appreciation in later years but maybe that is the NEXT design goal of drum corps. How to push limits, generate new effects for the judges without losing the enjoyment of fans. It's certainly possible but a challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) Effect should be pretty much "did you enjoy the effect elicited from the corps". They could sadness, fear, intellectual etc. but if the audience did not enjoy the ride then the show is ineffective. after all, math can be enjoyable, history, avant guard, even a show testing limits of musical and visual enjoyment can be "enjoyable" from a purely intellectual way for those that want to be tested . Every production wants people to "enjoy" themselves no matter how dark, convoluted, or esoteric the production. Enjoyment does not come just from loud and fast. Drum corps fans ( like an other art appreciates) can gain satisfaction from a number of different moods/methods. If a corps wants to be intellectual and avant guard that is great! But they need to make the crowd enjoy the ride. The crowd will "give it up" if they felt a strong intellectual connection to their show and design. If not, they won't. What's the point of pushing limits and be "different" if you can't find a way to hook people instantly? It is a challenge and many corps shows only gain appreciation in later years but maybe that is the NEXT design goal of drum corps. How to push limits, generate new effects for the judges without losing the enjoyment of fans. It's certainly possible but a challenge. youre also under the assumption that its very black and white...sure here you see alot of discontent BUT I dont care what anyone says I spent 3 months away ( mostly ) and theres alot more love than many want to believe out there...now can that tip scales from show to show? sure, depends on crowd...another reason why a judge needs to sift through that I myself have written shows that people and crowds ate it up and have been with corps and winter programs that just walking out caused a frenzy....and yes I complained when my scores , especially in GE werent as high as some of the sleeper shows..BUT If I ask myself and put personal bias aside...did the others who were higher create great effect, applause or not..Yes...if i want to be honest........now can judges get it wrong or have thier own BIAS..yeah ..unfortunately...its not all that clean behind the scenes either Edited September 10, 2012 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I think so. I think atucker believes that audience doesn't matter at all and I certainly disagree. Where we agree is that directly measuring the audience is probably not a good idea. I'm not really trying to interject my personal opinion regarding whether the crowd is important here (not an easy feat for any one of us I would imagine). I'm simply trying to articulate what is on the sheets, which, for the most part, consider the audience a small part of the equation in terms of scoring. That being said, a show that actually has good general effect according to the sheets, should, it stands to reason, have some effect on the crowd. What that effect is, depends on the show itself, and what the compositional intent is. As for the importance of the crowd, I think (this is where my opinion comes in), at an isolated show, the crowd at that moment, on that night is relatively unimportant. As you stated, there are nights where the crowd is just dead, there are crowds with massive bias, and so on. You have a point in that a show that doesn't affect the crowd doesn't sell tickets, but my contention is that the diversity of shows currently present at a typical DCI show satisfies those needs. Again, what is entertaining to one, may not be to another. Some feel strongly that a show that doesn't reach the crowd on a visceral level is a failure, and to them, it may be. The bottom line is, on the sheets it may not be. Some corps put more value on the majority of the crowd's interests. That is their priority, and their prerogative. Some corps prefer to be more artistic, and consequently appeal to a smaller minority of the crowd. Who's to say that either part of the audience (or any of the parts in between) is less important. If every show was completely transparent, we'd lose a portion of our audience. If every show was intellectual and deeply layered, we'd lose a portion of our audience (albeit likely a larger one). If every show was comical and silly, we'd lose a portion of the audience. You raised a good point in mentioning that drum corps is a little different regarding the fact that it has many acts. Instead of focusing on the few shows that didn't fit one idea of entertaining, I'd challenge you to look at the big picture. Were there shows that did entertain you? If not, I'd question whether or not you really like drum corps in the first place. I don't go to the theater expecting to be bolted to my seat every second of the show. There will be moments where there is less going on, or where the plot may be slow to develop. At the Opera, there may be arias that I don't care for, or there may be a character who's voice is not my favorite. I may find the conductor's interpretation of a particular moment to be flat or unmoving. That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy the overall experience. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I'm not really trying to interject my personal opinion regarding whether the crowd is important here (not an easy feat for any one of us I would imagine). I'm simply trying to articulate what is on the sheets, which, for the most part, consider the audience a small part of the equation in terms of scoring. That being said, a show that actually has good general effect according to the sheets, should, it stands to reason, have some effect on the crowd. What that effect is, depends on the show itself, and what the compositional intent is. Disagree pretty strongly. Effect is ALL about the audience. My favorite definition of effect (courtesy WGI) : WHAT IS GENERAL EFFECT? General Effect is the creative and appealing design of the show combined with the performance and communication of the program. These two elements together produce what we call "Entertainment Value" or General Effect. General Effect is a part of the judging system that rewards the extent the audience is interested,involved, entertained, or emotionally engaged in the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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