Jeff Ream Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Electronics make the production better. Help tell the story, add effect. I'm sure some good 'ol drum corps traditionalists will now talk about the integrity and how drum corps isn't what it used to be. You will be right, it's better now. conversely, they can take away from the show and make the story worse or harder to follow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I was two rows directly behind you, and the only unamplified sound that I thought wasn't loud enough was vocals by Govenaires drum major -- and that was a surprise because someone (it might have been you!) had posted here during DCI's Minneapolis show, where his voice was also faint, that he was normally quite audible. DCA Finals was my first time hearing a corps completely unamplified pit live --apart from Spartans at DCI Open Class finals a month earlier-- since 1999. (I went for ten years without seeing a live show.) Lots of people who support pit amplification have claimed that we can't judge from DCI's recordings whether the pits actually were audible before 2004, because their microphones were placed so close to the pit. And there is precious little home video footage of pre-2004 DCI corps on youtube to compare. (Such videos probably reflect more accurately what a particular audience member hears, at least in terms of relative volume.) So I was quite pleased to find that indeed I could hear the pits just fine, even those Kidsgrove drums you mention. On a related note, at a (cold!) marching band contest I attended yesterday, there were some unmiked woodwind solos that were quite audible from the last (28th) row. Naturally they wouldn't be if the rest of the band was playing loudly, but that would be every bit as true in the concert hall. Now, if one's standards require that it be possible for a soloist or pit instrumentation to be every bit as loud as the full ensemble, then I suppose that would lead one to demand amplification. Other people will accept that some instruments are naturally louder than others, and prefer a sound that works within that constraint. For myself, I have trouble writing off all the DCI shows before 2003, and all the DCA shows ever, as somehow musically inferior. Yet apparently most DCI arrangers and designers think that way, since no corps yet seems to have reduced their amplification, once they have it. Thus DCA's rule is forcing a pleasing difference that would vanish if it was repealed. One thing that has surprised me is how much the past two years of DCA DVDs/CDs --which I purchased at this year's show-- apparently record too much of the pit! This seems particularly true of the 2010 DVDs, and especially for the Hurricanes, where the pit often sounds louder than the horns. I'm sure it didn't sound that way live, if 2010 was anything like this year. if you were in Hershey yesterday and didn't say hi, shame on you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 This comment is so dated, I have a hard time responding to it. Lack of attendance: 1. Economy (from outrageous member dues to gas prices, we are all affected, especially a 501c3) - anyone dispute? 2. You also have an incredible amount of new activities for youth to participate in, with fewer corps, fewer mom, dads, and grandmas coming to watch. 3. DCA is horrible at PR, a bad website and 10 people on DCP isn't grabbing any new interest. Broadway at one point and time definitely turned to electronics as well, to help with the overall production and the telling of the story. Ask a designer nowadays, they will tell you drum corps is a production on a football field. Electronics only enhance a production. Now. . . there are and will always be bad shows, bad ideas, areas where electronics can hurt a production. But that's just poor design, not the electronics fault. well....electronics can be a crutch that aids poor design, aka we have it, ergo we must use it. I've seen good electronics usage. I've seen far more bad. But....economy aside....we have been fed the same song and dance about how electronics were going to revolutionize the activity for 8 years. attedance hasn't gone anywhere. There's no proof it has drawn one new ### to the seats or on the field. Itcan be done well. Honestly, the best usage is in indoor, in a controlled environment. second best usage is in the band world, where the drum corps people supposedly have such expertise....yet can't get it to happen in DCI. and DCA doesnt have the money DCI does. could DCA do some PR better?Sure. it DOES get a little better every year. I'm all for good usage of electronics, but sadly, few judges in DCI have the balls to call out poor usage. Only then will you see change happen 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 I think your reaching a little bit on this one. For starters, if a corps is that fiscally irresponsible and subjects their entire organization to financial collapse just to pick up some amplification equipment.. there are more serious issues at stake. In addition, even if amps do become allowed, I doubt they will be REQUIRED. So, if you want them, get them... if not, or you can't afford them, then don't. I know once a couple of the big guys pick them up everyone will want to jump on that train, but it's more important for an organization to stay alive then to mic the pit. As far as show sponsors not dealing with more requirements, most are already running a 110v extension cord out to the track for the judges table or in some cases, announcers table anyway. It's not a stretch at all to run another 110v cord, or to run one in the first place. Most stadiums already have power at field level for one reason or another. Things may have changed, but I thought the rules in most band circuits were "everything had to run off of 1 extension cord" so it can be done simply. Were not talking 220 or 3 phase electrical here. I think when most people think of A&E they are thinking of the full DCI setups we are seeing. Personally.. I hope DCA never gets to that point, ever. I would be ok with simple pit only amplification. Small, simple mix board already pre-set, some small microphones strategically placed, and one amp on either side of the pit. That's it. Your looking at a couple of hundred dollars and 1 power strip. Not these crazy mix boards that require a full time member to monitor during a show. That is not the place DCA needs to journey to IMO. If we get to the point where sound effects are part of a show.. I'm out. never happen with the small set up, as we predicted with DCI. Once you open the door, the entire stable will eventually get loose 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Well my view may well be dated.....but it's sad to watch the activity I love evaporate, though at least I know now I can pretty much attend any show as a walk in and have a fine seat on the fifty....I'll have a great vantage point to take in the story and soak in the production without the distraction of a large, wildly cheering crowd. Not really...lots of shows are packed with cheering fans. I had to buy a back side/SRO ticket at one show I attended as a walk-in this past summer as one example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 conversely, they can take away from the show and make the story worse or harder to follow. Any element used poorly will do that. No reason to outlaw bass drums because they may be used badly and muck up the rest of the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 For starters, if a corps is that fiscally irresponsible and subjects their entire organization to financial collapse just to pick up some amplification equipment.. there are more serious issues at stake. In addition, even if amps do become allowed, I doubt they will be REQUIRED. We know how this works already - we have seen it play out in DCI. They will be an option - the only option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Any element used poorly will do that. No reason to outlaw bass drums because they may be used badly and muck up the rest of the show. actually, i've suggested it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPeashey Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Any element used poorly will do that. No reason to outlaw bass drums because they may be used badly and muck up the rest of the show. ok... since you are someone I admire and respect... perhaps you can answer my burning questions to electronics but first a couple facts: 1. Change is inevitable 2. Change will happen 3. Change is not always good, but it's also not always bad 4. I am resolved that electronics has made its way into drum corps (via the end run through the band circuits) and will probably stay with us 5. I think the issue of cost of electronics is extremely underrated when discussing it in all aged/weekend warrior corps where budgets are far more critical ok... I'm looking for answers to just these questions: 1. Electronics done bad does not seem to hurt the score. Electronics done extremely well may or may not help the score... To be accepted, the judges must properly penalize electronics when it is done poorly - even if the error or failure is not caused by the performers... why not???? The only thing that can possibly allow electronics to be accepted by all is if it's done correctly by all... this will never happen... So, penalizing those who do something wrong seems basically correct to my adjudication oriented mind... agree? And as a former adjudicator/administrator/judge trainer, I get it when something beyond the control of the performer occurs and the judge is reluctant to fully penalize the performers even if it ruins the show... BUT... this is wrong... bad electronics must equal bad score... agree? 2. Scenario: Corps A has 8 contras... Corps B has 2 contras and a bass guitar in the pit with a great amp system... with very delicate and superbly done control of the volume, Corps B creates the same effect at all the right times as Corps A... ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL... performance, quality of those performers they do have in both corps, difficulty level etc etc... the two corps are completely equal... Who gets more credit? or is it a tie? You see - after the potential to bankrupt the underfunded all aged part of the activity - this is MY biggest fear... paying the big bucks for a quality electronics system whether it includes a bass guitar or synthesizers may become more important than recruiting a living and breathing human body... To me - with all things being equal - 8 contras win every time over 2 contras and a bass guitar... even though the effects and everything else may be equal... Now I may be totally wrong on this and missing the possibility that the Europeans may be right... keep the corps at 40 to 50 people instead of 120 and your budget problems are reduced by over 50% (plus you have to add to that lower budget whatever the cost of the electronics is) BUT I'm sorry, drum corps - all the 60 years I've been in it - is about people. It is about the thousands of brothers and sisters I got to love and respect in the decades we all strived for success and excellence and to please the audience, and I see the attempt to replace humans with electrons as deplorable... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted November 6, 2012 Share Posted November 6, 2012 Broadway at one point and time definitely turned to electronics as well, to help with the overall production and the telling of the story Also used to cut down on pit orchestra size..... When the keyboards can be made to sound like various instruments... why use the real things..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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