G7 looking for controlling vote.

[Mello Dude]

Also FWIW, a land line should never be scoffed at. Just ask Sandy people.

My link

[FlamMan]

This didn't used to be the case where the top DCI corps were "ordained" to win. Possibly it's time for the 7 to go their way and DCI restructure from the ground up. Face it, DCI has been riding on the carcass of drum corps for some time. I personally feel the elimination of the local circuits was the nail in the coffin for corps that wanted to tour locally. Were they all good...no. Generally speaking beginners generally aren't going to be as good as 21 and 22 year old experienced players and guard members. The fact some people won't tolerate a sub G7 show for their precious ears is why these younger kids are deflated. You have always seen THAT parent on the soccer or baseball field or even DCI show that had a smaller corps there performing. But I am digressing.

Here are my thoughts on it.

1) Bring back the local circuits and start doing more parade/shows at festivals.

2) Go back to G horns. (Please let me elaborate)

-Corps have lost a unique sound when this was implemented. Right now there is NOTHING separating a brass marching band and a drum corps. Try and market that as unique. Also the differences between the haves and have nots have grown to be HUGE esp with brass manufacturers. Old horns weren't the best but they held up better than these new ones. And only the larger corps are getting the benefits from rotating their horns. Deals smaller corps cannot get.

3) I also suggest more local youth involvement being that only a certain percentage can be out of that corps operating area. This would also bolster more local involvement. Face it if your corps is from everywhere but where you are...yeah that gonna be good for local parents. This would also put the hammer down on the huge amounts of talent running to the top 3 every year.

4) Lose the electronics.

5) Make the maximum number back to 128 or 135.

6) Limit front side ensemble to a max % of the marching corps.

Anyhow feel free to lambast me as a dino.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

[Jeff Ream]

The current model is fundamentally broken.

21 votes is absolutely not a solution.

The biggest problem with DCI from an operations standpoint is that nearly everything is design by committee.

If you want to create an extremely mediocre or ineffective result, you simply add more people to the decision-making process.

The last thing that should happen is that more people, not less, should be involved in the decision-making process.

Three would be a good balance.

If you want to take the performance or money aspects out of the equation...

Take the organizations that have programs that engage the greatest number of youth. Give the three groups that serve the greatest number of kids decision-making power.

So, if you want to call the shots, serve more kids. Doesn't have to be a drum corps, can be community programs, camps, whatever.

Right now I'd say the top 3, if using this metric:

1 - Cadets

2 - Blue Devils

3 - Santa Clara Vanguard

it's broken and who were three of the guiding lights for creating that model?

Hopkins, Gibbs and Fiedler...who admit in their manifesto they aren't sure how to fix it themselves, but they want the power anyways.

Jesus, are they running for Congress?

[TastyWaves]

1) Apparently you didn't read (show) at the end of that first point.

2) You did not even address the point. I'm sorry, but how can you speak for the "average" citizen? I dare you do blind test AND DB meter sometime...you will be amazed. Also being able to market something unique is a point in itself. FYI you would have to be a pretty poor horn player to not be able to compensate for different key horns.

3) Again, just thinking outside the box.

4) Those things cost money. Money is keeping corps from competing on an even playing field. They are also being balanced by non corps members off the field. Weak for a competitive sport to say the least.

5) It is so the spread of members between a 60 person corps and a 128 vs 150. Again, evening the field.

6) Personal attacks mean nothing to debate sir. Limiting the front ensemble would bring down costs AND make the spread less between the haves and the have nots.

No one is tearing down anything. I am simply making some suggestions to get more local involvement. Also, you point to Crown, note when they made the push into DCI and when all these massive changes came into play to favor the bigger corps (try again). Change is NOT a bad word, but when it costs more money and widens the playing field, Houston we have a problem. The G7 see there is an issue but my sig covers this point ever so well here.

1) I read it... Its just nonsense. (in my opinion of course. Im sure others will agree with you, i simply dont)

2) You can "Dare" all you want. I know plenty about this activity and like everyone else, I have two lives. My "Drum corps/band/drumline/guard/ life" and my "real life". They often intersect with my regular friends and family seeing what I spend my time on. Without any help from me they prefer the current incarnation of drum corps over the old "neighborhood" thing.

3) I dont remember Marketing being anything I refferred to. But I also dont believe drum corps will ever be a mainstream medium. I dont care if you get the marketing gurus from Coke, Pepsi, Apple, and Disney. Your not gonna get millions of people who are not directly involved or alums of drum corps to actively participate in drum corps related events. You will of course get some new fans, but it wont be widespread. I also dont remember talking about horn players and their skills to go back and forth between the two. I did say the average citizen wont know the difference which is true. You know how some people still blow a fuse when a "Civilian" innocently asks "What marching band is that?" when a drum corps is seen on TV? thats the general public not knowing the difference and not caring when its explained to them.

4) Yes. Life costs more money these days. Electronics were voted on by the membership of DCI and passed. And I saw every corps last summer, and I believe every corps had the electronics. So there goes that argument. You cant say they dont have it when they have it.

5) Why do we need an "Even field"? The Blue Devils/Crown/Cavalies/Blue Coats didnt wake up one day with 150 members and all of that equipment. Thousands of people put in thousands of hours to EARN that corps status. Im glad they are where they. The ones that want to be there will figure it out and get there.

6) Nobody attacked you Captain Sensitive. Someone called your point idiotic which perhaps is a strong description for which I apologize, but my point remains.

By that logic, Limiting the Tuba section would probably help too. Those horns are expensive. Lets say no more than 3 tubas per corps next year. Again, the "have nots" just need to work harder. I dont care how many people say it, Im not interested in tearing down a group that worked hard for what they have just to make the "have nots" feel better about themselves.

I suppose every player on the bench should get a trophy too huh?

Edited January 13, 2013 by TastyWaves

[JimF-LowBari]

I believe we should separate out the older instruments that played in the key of " G ", and the key of " G " itself. ( particularly in the higher voices.., ie the soprano voices.). While I agree with you that the instruments that played the " G " in the early years were quite inferior, I do not accept that the SOUND of a brass soprano in the key of " G " is inferior to that of the " Bb ". I prefer the " G " sound in the soprano because it appears much less tiny to my ears. The " G " sound appears fuller, richer, deeper to my ears. I believe that we will find a time in the future that the instrumentation will evolve and the technology arrive that will channge the mechanics to allow the " G " sound to return to the sporano trumpet- bugle morphed stage. That particular instrument will mechanically be different from what was available in the early years of Drum Corps.... and will be far superior as a G keyed soprano voiced instrument than the inferior keyed G brass soprano instruments of 30-40- 50 years ago. But who knows, we'll see.

Amen on checking the era the horn was made.... Gave up on bringing this up when people say "G sucked, Bb is good". Never played Bb in corps but have played/owned Gs anywhere from 1v to current 3v Kanstul. Would love to have someone play a current G and Bb Kanstul and tell me what the differences are besides the key. As an aside I have a King 2v Bari that I bought to get back into playing. Played it in public once but prefer the 3v as it is just plain better sounding and playing.

If the King danielray played was like the one I have, I can see why he has a bad opinion. But he needs to experience what is goning on now. The younger members of our corps that never played G before don't seem to mind or have a problem on 3v.

Edited January 12, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[mobrien]

We need to go back to the days in which there were many more drum corps instead of just the top elite.

Ok. How do we do that? Anyone got $30 million in seed money to start up 40 new local drum corps?

There's a way forward for those who want to run smaller, community oriented drum corps, but they'll have to start thinking a little more outside the DCI box. They could be looking to either radically change the format they use for contests, emphasizing broader rules and the possibilities of 40-70 member units, or they should be looking to align with DCA, where there's already an infrastructure for weekend-only drum corps.

Edited January 12, 2013 by mobrien

[MikeD]

1) Bring back the local circuits and start doing more parade/shows at festivals.

Local circuits require something that doesn't exist...enough local corps in clusters all over the country to support such an endeavor.

2) Go back to G horns. (Please let me elaborate)

-Corps have lost a unique sound when this was implemented. Right now there is NOTHING separating a brass marching band and a drum corps. Try and market that as unique. Also the differences between the haves and have nots have grown to be HUGE esp with brass manufacturers. Old horns weren't the best but they held up better than these new ones. And only the larger corps are getting the benefits from rotating their horns. Deals smaller corps cannot get.

How would performing on inferior instruments attract enough members to fill all these corps you think can just spring up?

3) I also suggest more local youth involvement being that only a certain percentage can be out of that corps operating area. This would also bolster more local involvement. Face it if your corps is from everywhere but where you are...yeah that gonna be good for local parents. This would also put the hammer down on the huge amounts of talent running to the top 3 every year.

All you have done is reduce the potential membership by limiting where the potential members can come from. How does that grow anything?

4) Lose the electronics.

Why 'lose' something that has been such a great benefit?

5) Make the maximum number back to 128 or 135.

Why? Those numbers were based on the numbers 3 busses could hold way back when. Three can hold 150 today. Why not receive the revenue from 150?

6) Limit front side ensemble to a max % of the marching corps.

Why? Each corps should be free to use their members as they see fit.

I'm a dino too, and the above ideas will kill of what remains faster than anything, IMO.

[MikeD]

I don’t think the DCI model is broken, I think Gibbs and Hopkins model is broken and won’t work in DCI so perhaps, they need to go

You are kidding, right? How many times have the BD and Cadets won DCI under those two people? They each have won the most recent two years. Heck, over the last 5 finals, BD won 3 and the Cadets 1..that is 4 out of 5.

[MikeD]

As for the " G ", this is just a key. There is no assurance that some manufacturer in the future won;t be able to bridge the gap and figure out how to make new tubing, finger, slides that can't return the sound of the " G ". Things do evolve, and with that instrumentation designs. The notion that the Bb is here to stay forever is folly too.

Why would the corps want to return to non-standard key horns? They now get to sell their horns to the tens of thousands of bands around the country that use Bb/F horns. This allows them to remain current with the latest improvements in marching brass and not have to foot the bill for a complete set of horns.

[BRASSO]

Why would the corps want to return to non-standard key horns? They now get to sell their horns to the tens of thousands of bands around the country that use Bb/F horns. This allows them to remain current with the latest improvements in marching brass and not have to foot the bill for a complete set of horns.

Nothing stands still. What is " standard " today, becomes substandard tomorrow. Even in the Marching Band instrument technology. You don't really believe that the soprano voice brass Bb trumpet configuration is the end of the line in the soprano voice brass instrumentation for either Marching Bands or Drum Corps.... or do you ? I don't subscribe to the notion that an improved tubing, valving, fingering technology, etc can not provide an advance in instrumention and could not provide a richer, fuller soprano voice that will allow a full key of " G " playing. I think its quite possible that a creative engineer will be able to figure it out, develop it, and market it, as a matter of fact. And I believe the soprano voice sound will be made more fuller, richer as a result of the performer being given wider key range in the " G " in the upper soprano voices, and that progressive Marching Bands ( and Drum Corps ) will probably be the first to purchase them as a matter of fact. I think the soprano Bb flat sound is tiny and inferior to the fuller and richer sound of the soprano voice played in the key of " G ". I realize that this is preference and others might disagree. I am not talking about the COSTS here, just the musical pleasantness of the brass soprano voice sound. And my ear preference is for the " G ". This is a matter of preference and really not subject to a right or wrong answer. Those that prefer the sound of the Bb trumpet in the soprano voice are likewise entitled to that personal preference as well, imo.

Edited January 13, 2013 by BRASSO