Have DCI Standings Actually Stagnated?

[Michael Boo]

The short answer is that Open Class Corps come from a wide geographical region literally covering from Coast to Coast, and into Canada. They benefit not so much from their association with the World Class, as they do to the organization of DCI itself. If the elite Corps believe that they need the organization of DCI ( they currently do, as they'd have left after 2011 )then you can be sure that these Open Class corps need DCI even more than they do at this point in time. Though imperfect, DCI provides them needed centralization and economies of scale.... national competition at Championships, needed access to marketing, event advertising, camp info, videos, access to DCI judges, seminar and instruction attendance, rules and regs updates, and 100 other things that they can not get if they were separated from all the national and international branding and umbrella marketing that DCI provides to them, their staff, their marchers,their alums, their fans, etc. If they lost their DCI afiliation they would quickly die, imo. There are simply too few of them now in much too wide a geographical span of miles now to exist on their own without DCI.

In addition, I personally believe that all corps need DCI.

[BRASSO]

:worthy:/>/>/>

In addition, I personally believe that all corps need DCI.

I didn't give you the red mark, but my guess... just a hunch... that there are quite a few people out there that march DCA or in Alumni Corps, etc and so forth, that might take issue with you on this, Michael. I also think there is a very good chance that you simply forgot this at the moment and you meant them no slight. ( or that you were just referring to Corps currently involved in DCI.)

Edited February 17, 2013 by BRASSO

[Stu]

I think the following example is in line with what Boo was implying about believing all corps need DCI: A number of years ago NASCAR had a 'star' ego problem so the CEO, Bill France, just kicked out Richard Petty and most of the other 'stars' and then ran a sold-out race at Talladega with no fan complaints. After that happened, Petty and the other deflated ego 'stars' came back to NASCAR with their tails between their legs. Bill France had to remind Tony Stewart of that precedent when Tony began bashing NASCAR; France bluntly told Tony that he needed NASCAR more than NASCAR needed Tony and that the organization would go on just fine without him and his ego.

[Schnitzel]

I think it would be worth a review of the judging standards to possibly revise what is thought of as good, since the current approach encourages corps to "teach to the test" from a programming standpoint, which has led to an unfortunate sameness in approaches. Everyone feels they need "a theme" and that if "the theme" isn't clever enough, it won't win.

Here's the thing; almost none of the themes are ever that clever. Sometimes they're just plain awful. Either they're loaded with pretension or they're just a little too obvious, hence cloying (too many examples to mention).

Shaking up the competitive possibilities would be a good thing, but the way to do it isn't through drafts or penalties or spending caps; it's through a revised judging system that's more geared towards performance skills and audience impact and less concerned with 'design.' You know that your activity is succeeding when the crowd goes into Finals week having no idea which of any 4 or 5 corps will win on Saturday night. Put THAT as the goal, and design a judging system that would allow it to happen again.

Side note; Oakland Crusaders in '75 were only half a new Finalist; DeLaSalle Oaklands had made Finals the year before. :cool:/>

"Succeeding" for who . . . the spectators who invest $50-100-200 and a couple of hours, or the performers who invest $1-2K and a few months? Obviously, both are important.

[cixelsyd]

You missed something crucial. I am talking strictly from the corps perspective not the fans. Because if the corps feel that the placement they get is warranted and if the corps feels that they have the potential to eventually move up then it doesn't really matter what we think as fans.

Oh yes it does matter what we think as fans. Because if we think the contest order is so predictable that we need not bother buying as many tickets to watch the same order play out, that has a financial impact on the whole activity.

[cixelsyd]

Sure, the criteria are the same, but the judges are each unique individuals with differing experiences over time, so there will always be some level of variation.

OTOH, the idea of stagnation...if true, isn't that just reflective of the idea that the corps that are good tend to remain good, etc...?

Or, per your own suggestion, maybe it is reflective of the idea that less judges = less variation?

[cixelsyd]

While I think that maybe charlie1223 may be jumping to conclusions a bit, I think at the very least you have to admit that your assertion is based on outdated information. Even the leaked email from the "7" seemed to have quite a bit of different information than what was in the 2010 powerpoints, and at the very least the 2010 powerpoint was shot-down. I see that as a rough-draft idea that has, almost three years later, been changed & refined quite a bit. Maybe you are right, and maybe charlie1223 is right. At this point, we honestly don't know as there have been no official press releases from either "side." We do know that the "7" have directors on DCI's board, and the two organizations are seemingly at the very least working together for now. Time will tell what the full story is, and I agree with you that charlie1223 is indeed making an assumption. But in this situation I don't think it's wise to make assumptions on EITHER side of this argument without all of the facts.

So you tell us not to make assumptions, just after making the one underlined above?

[jjeffeory]

Oh yes it does matter what we think as fans. Because if we think the contest order is so predictable that we need not bother buying as many tickets to watch the same order play out, that has a financial impact on the whole activity.

While I agree with you on this issue, it doesn't seem that DCI agrees with us.

[charlie1223]

Oh yes it does matter what we think as fans. Because if we think the contest order is so predictable that we need not bother buying as many tickets to watch the same order play out, that has a financial impact on the whole activity.

Not really... People expect BD to win but there is still hope and chance that any of the top 5 can win any given year. Aslong as there is a hope/chance then Fans will still be interested. People may not go to shows because BD won last year but I doubt you'll find someone who's only reason for not going to shows is because they KNOW without a doubt that the placements will be exactly the same. Those people don't exist and you can't say they do.

[charlie1223]

Do those circuits exist now, Mike? Right now, DCI coordinates the schedule, judges, and payouts Open Class corps competition. The G-7 would therefore be telling the Open Class corps to create their own new circuit, right?

And I note that you largely agree with Jeff: he said the G-7 proposed that DCI's "future ... doesn't include OC corps" while you say the OC corps "would not be part of DCI".

Eh, what? This is the converstation:

Jeff: "a segment of WC directors have a future vision that doesn't include OC corps"

charlie: "This has been debunked"

N.E.B.: "you shouldn't cite your interpretation of a disputed point as proof that other side's arguments have been 'debunked'"

Who said anything about good or bad? The word "debunked" refers to a claim being shown to be factually untrue. All we have here are two interpretations of the G-7 proposal. Jeff's has not been proven false; charlie just disagrees with it. I would respond similarly if Jeff claimed this his interpretation "debunked" charlie's.

Just for the record. I love how my thought out posts on DCP longer than a single sentence get Completly ignored but my short 4 word sentences get chewed up over a single ####### word and warrants paragraphs and paragraphs of explanation and degradation by a couple G7 hating guys on here. That's how it works I guess... Jesus Christ guys. Im learning that Short sentences play to people emotions much faster.......

What Jeff said has been "debunked" in that it cannot be taken as fact as it once had been. The interpretation of the slide which sprung this idea reread given context clues suggests that their 2010 vision would include current OC corps but maybe not the Open Class circuit. Not only that but Gibbs and Fiedler have a large stake in their B corps... Why would they fold them? I guess because they are heartless vultures right...

I'm not saying my interpretation is fact, but the fact that there is legitimate interpretation that counters that of Jeff's means his cannot be stated as a clear fact... That G7 vision does not include Open Class Corps. My interpretation has NOT been proven false however it is more likely to be true than Jeff's who is still clinging to an old interpretation. Corpsband knows what I'm talking about.

Sorry I wrote more than 4 words. Hope you guys will treat it fairly though and chew it up just the same. LOL!

Edited February 19, 2013 by charlie1223