TOC/G7 Related Discussion

[13strokeroll]

Ok; if you were a Junior in any of the well-known hs bands around the nation; your parents were already paying the multi-thousands of dollars in fees to be in the marching band; you were going to the BOA Grand Nationals and other out-of-state contests; your summer was already packed with hs camps and sectionals; would you (and especially your parents) want to fly you back and forth to say Rockford, IL, pay Regiment another multi-thousand in fees, and try to figure out a way to overcome the Sumner conflicts? This is not the 1970's hs band scene and 1970's drum corps scene any longer, (no matter how much you want to wax poetic in the world of nostalgia).

Yes, we did. As did about 10% of the other parents of a repeat semis band.

[Stu]

Yes, we did. As did about 10% of the other parents of a repeat semis band.

You are saying yes to the following:

1) You and your parents paid band dues in the multi-thousand dollar range per year ie like Broken Arrow (and)...

2) You and you parents were able to pay for flights to a far away WC corps each month while also being in that HS band program (and)...

3) You and your parents were able to pay the multi-thousand dollar corps camp fees/dues plus the peripheral costs of things while out on summer tour with a WC corps on top of those flights and HS band dues.

Hmmmm.... no wonder this modern marching activity is rightly called just a 'rich kids' activity.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Stu

[Fran Haring]

THIS is likely where the activity is going.

That is very impressive.

I'm amazed at how quickly that front ensemble got set up and was ready to go.

[HockeyDad]

Several of us who were there at the time have pointed out the confluence of factors that made small time, community-based drum corps an unfeasible model in an era of shrinking veterans orgs and more plentiful cheap alternatives (aka "band"), and you refuse to accept that those factors are correct.

So the way this works in the real world is that you then present an alternative theory. Look at the period from 1974 through 1990, since that encompasses the bulk of the loss of small corps. Consider the number of feature articles in The Instrumentalist about "corps style", the rise of BOA and McCormick's Enterprises, the Hal Leonard "corps style" series of arrangements, and the changes in the way that high school bands viewed drum corps from the 1960s (where it was considered a form of music abuse) through the 1980s (when everyone was copying what was being done at DCI).

Have at it.

Your condescending tone really sways my thinking. John Wooden once said - disagree but don't be disagreeable.

BTW, I too was there at the time. I have news for you - your reality isn't the only reality.

[MikeD]

I was looking for some actual information / data. Not trite responses.

Why does the season matter in such a discussion? What does that even mean? IS there a conflict between HS marching band and drum corps seasons that would make a person choose one or the other?

Please explain why a rise in competitive HS marching bands would cause, or relate to, a fall in drum corps numbers. I do not understand the linkage.

Are you saying, a student does HS marching band, so he's got his "itch" scratched and there's no need to do drum corps? These two were such vastly different experiences that there was no comparison. I couldn't comprehend one replacing another because they were two different things.

Competitive MB and drum corps are not 'two different things' anymore. That is why you don't understand why the thousands of competitive MB have replaced the hundreds of local corps.

[MikeD]

Do HS students REALLY consider there to be no difference between a WC drum corps and their HS marching band? I can kind of see your point concerning HS marching bands supplanting your local weekend corps. But looking at the situation today.... do HS marching bands compete with the WC corps of today - do students see no difference between their marching band and a WC corps? Are they really "the same thing" as MikeD says? If so, well, okay. That explains the lack of growth of WC drum corps. If not, then, there are other, more involved, factors at play. And that means, these other factors could be explored and worked on.

well...I am referring to the hundreds of local corps that have been replaced by the thousands of competitive bands...I've said that many times here in DCP. WC corps are looked up to by the band kids...as they are seen as the very best in doing what the bands do. That is pretty much the same as it was back in the day when the local corps looked up to the class 'A' Big Corps (e.g. Blessed Sac and Garfield here in NJ).

[MikeD]

Please find my post where I state I think there's a conspiracy.

Interlochen - I spend a summer there long ago - learning that there are A LOT more talented musicians than I.

Anyway, I remain to be convinced that the demise of so many drum corps and the rise of HS competitive marching bands are linked. That they occurred around the same time period doesn't necessarily mean that one caused the other. In the case of the small town corps I marched in, it died when the enthusistic corps leaders left town for better things. It wasn't linked to the fortunes of the marching band.

I don't believe there is any ONE reason for the decline, but of the many reasons, the rise of the competitive MB is one of them.

[Slingerland]

Your condescending tone really sways my thinking. John Wooden once said - disagree but don't be disagreeable.

BTW, I too was there at the time. I have news for you - your reality isn't the only reality.

If you have an alternative theory to the one laid out, please bring it to the table. Until you do, the majority here seem to agree that the rise of drum corps-inspired band programs and the fade of the veterans organizations that used to sponsor drum corps are the two most viable villains in the saga of "what happened to those 300 community drum corps?"

Edited March 31, 2013 by Slingerland

[BRASSO]

Was there an actual alternative theory presented there?

Sorry if you find it condescending, but people who object to clearly defined theories, not because they have information that indicates another possibilty, but because they just because they don't like them, don't strike me as serious.

If you have an alternative theory to the one laid out, please bring it to the table. Until you do, the majority here seem to agree that the rise of drum corps-inspired band programs and the fade of the veterans organizations that used to sponsor drum corps are the two most viable villains in the saga of "what happened to those 300 community drum corps?"

The DCI model that was adopted of all summer long travel, with so many Corps criss crossing the country for 2 months or so, also became financially unsustainable and in retrospect was a flawed model, imo.

Prior to DCI, most Corps competed in local circuits competitions and then might attend an out of state National Competition such as the World Open, VFW or American Legion Nationals, The Open, CYO Nationals, the Dream, or some such. Their travel costs were kept low, and national touring all summer was unusual ( Troopers probably being the exception re. national travel for large portions of the summer ).

In my opinion, DCI initially might have been better served having 4 Regionals in 4 sections of the Country, and having the top 3 Corps that finished 1-2-3 there, then meet in a 1 night ( or maybe add a Prelims )National Championship. This would be sort of like an NCAA model that has worked well for the Colleges for years. When we look at all the Corps that died out during the DCI years, almost without exception it was for a financial reason... and the biggest costs here were the traveling costs of extra busses, gas, etc... especially once Corps got bigger and added in more props and heavier precussion section instrumentation, kitchen trucks, and so forth. Add in the larger staff costs, insurance, uniforms, etc and it just too costly where these costs exploded into the hundreds of thousands of dollars needed each and every year during the DCI era of Junior Drum Corps Competition. It was simply too costly for too many Corps to make it work,..with so many of them traveling thousands of miles around the country like this for a couple of months. The Junior Corps loss rate no doubt was impacted by the loss of Church sponsorships, and Veteran Organization sponsorships. But DCI might havre been able to stem the loss when it was formed in 1972. But their National Tour Model, imo accelerated the loss of Corps instead, and the losses have mounted under their watch since.

Edited March 31, 2013 by BRASSO

[Slingerland]

When we look at all the Corps that died out during the DCI years, almost without exception it was for a financial reason... and the biggest costs here were the traveling costs of extra busses, gas, etc... especially once Corps got bigger and added in more props and heavier precussion section instrumentation, kitchen trucks, and so forth. Add in the larger staff costs, insurance, uniforms, etc and it just too costly where these costs exploded into the hundreds of thousands of dollars needed each and every year during the DCI era of Junior Drum Corps Competition.

I'd agree with that, except that most of the local corps who died in the 1970s died before they ever had to face any of those issues. There was no expectation in the Badgerland Circuit in the mid 70s that a national tour was necessary (even at the DCI corps level, there were two shorter tours rather than one continuous tour as happens now), and the full size pit was still ten years in the future, so those financial pressures couldn't have been brought to bear (yet). I think you have to focus on the era of greatest attrition among local drum corps, which was the 70s, not the 80s or 90s.

The idea of DCI being focused on one big event, with a series of more locally-managed events prior to Nationals, is one I've floated elsewhere here, and it didn't seem to be real popular.