Drum corps

[michsta8]

Outside of something like a dropped piece of equipment, there is no such thing as having a system that is 'objective'. Tics were just as subjective as today's system.

Disagree. If you drop a piece of equipment you should be deducted. There is nothing subjective about dropping. Either you did or didn't

[c mor]

Actually, regarding clean landings in ice skating... the judges have video replay capabilities with cameras focused on the skater's feet.

Is it sad that I know that....

[GUARDLING]

Outside of something like a dropped piece of equipment, there is no such thing as having a system that is 'objective'. Tics were just as subjective as today's system.

even worse.....judges back then werent held to any acountability. At least now there's a process in place to deal with that sort of thing.....not that people haven't danced around that

[MikeD]

Disagree. If you drop a piece of equipment you should be deducted. There is nothing subjective about dropping. Either you did or didn't

Note that I said "Outside of something like a dropped piece of equipment, there is no such thing as having a system that is 'objective'. "

[bluesman]

Even in a subjective build up type of system like DCI has used since the early '80s there has to be certain things that can be judged objectively. Otherwise we are relying on a system that is asking a judge to choose between an apple and an orange. A guard member throwing a quad is more difficult that a double. A brass player marching backwards at a high tempo while playing is more difficult than a brass player marching forward not playing. Surely we can agree to that type of objective statement. If we work under the premise that every corps score begins at zero and builds a final score based on certain measurable, subjective AND OBJECTIVE criteria then all corps and their designers would start from an even playing field. Does anyone seriously think that that is what we have now? I certainly don't. IMO this is a contributing factor in the stagnation of rankings and scores. I can imagine a designer for a corps stuck in the 8th-14th place range asking themselves "what do I have to do to improve my corps final placement?. Do I add more sampled music and slap a lofty concept on it or do I write more challenging material to build our score?". I can imagine a corps director asking themselves "what do I have to do to help my corps move up in the standings so I can get a bigger piece of that financial pie?". If something is not done to address the situation the booing is only going to get uglier, fan forums are only going to get nastier, and attendance will continue to drop.

Edited June 25, 2013 by bluesman

[HockeyDad]

Well.. (don't laugh)..... how about something like mandating certain drill elements in a drum corps show? Example - once per show a company front sustained a minimum of 16 beats must be performed (just totally making that up). I know, it evokes Legion and VFW days, doesn't it? Numbers of BPM an all that. But, I was wondering if there were elements that could be mandated into shows. I'm not suggesting every corps must play, for example, Tiger of San Pedro (been there, done that). But how about some other ideas?

[bluesman]

Well.. (don't laugh)..... how about something like mandating certain drill elements in a drum corps show? Example - once per show a company front sustained a minimum of 16 beats must be performed (just totally making that up). I know, it evokes Legion and VFW days, doesn't it? Numbers of BPM an all that. But, I was wondering if there were elements that could be mandated into shows. I'm not suggesting every corps must play, for example, Tiger of San Pedro (been there, done that). But how about some other ideas?

I don't think that mandating any particular required elements to our scoring system like in figure skating is the answer. But we do need a uniform understanding that certain visual and musical elements are more difficult than others and award them justly.

Edited June 26, 2013 by bluesman

[GUARDLING]

Even in a subjective build up type of system like DCI has used since the early '80s there has to be certain things that can be judged objectively. Otherwise we are relying on a system that is asking a judge to choose between an apple and an orange. A guard member throwing a quad is more difficult that a double. A brass player marching backwards at a high tempo while playing is more difficult than a brass player marching forward not playing. Surely we can agree to that type of objective statement. If we work under the premise that every corps score begins at zero and builds a final score based on certain measurable, subjective AND OBJECTIVE criteria then all corps and their designers would start from an even playing field. Does anyone seriously think that that is what we have now? I certainly don't. IMO this is a contributing factor in the stagnation of rankings and scores. I can imagine a designer for a corps stuck in the 8th-14th place range asking themselves "what do I have to do to improve my corps final placement?. Do I add more sampled music and slap a lofty concept on it or do I write more challenging material to build our score?". I can imagine a corps director asking themselves "what do I have to do to help my corps move up in the standings so I can get a bigger piece of that financial pie?". If something is not done to address the situation the booing is only going to get uglier, fan forums are only going to get nastier, and attendance will continue to drop.

a few things just in my opinion:

1 The Booing has been going on forever and from my travels through the summer it's a very small percentage, at least no more than usual through the decades.

2. You mentioned and even playing field.hmmmmmmmmmmmm is it ever that or has ever been? Corps go in to competition on an even playing field every year , now what one does with it, what talent is within the corps, show choice for particular corps and how it comes across, finances, management, etc etc. all play factors going into a new year of competition. I dont personally think we need compulsories and drag the activity back to the very thing why DCI and modern drum corps ( 1972 to now ) was formed.

3. You also mentioned what a designer or director stuck in a certain placement thinks they need to do to move forward.....well I think every corps 1-last does this either to move up or maintain or a # of reasons including challengs for their corps, new concepts,audience appeal ( subjective )Every corps does this and pretty much always has.

4. Your assesment on what may be harder to do a quard or double.( I know just an example ) but.., doubles havent been done as a rule for descades BUT when done nowadays its actually harder to control . There are way more elements that decide whats harder or not...what happens before it, after it and during, was body applied etc etc.....back to subjectiveness. this also goes for the marching examples you mentioned.

5. You also talked about stagnation of scores , No matter what the system is , what makes you think the outcomes as well as the corps at the top wouldn't be exactly the same.

So, has my opinion solved any of what you think the problems are..no, not at all Im afraid. I'm not disagreeing with you that some things do need to change. I do find it interesting in an activity that wants to move forward promotes and protects certain people ( judging community )that have been around forever. Now I'm not saying some arent just wonderful judges and have the best interest in the corps and the activity BUT I do know for certain many have just sealed themselves and their buds into a decades of power. This includes ( many the same people) _ WGI, and several band circuits. Maybe that's part of the problem ............again JMO

[ostinato]

I don't think that mandating any particular required elements to our scoring system like in figure skating is the answer. But we do need a uniform understanding that certain visual and musical elements are more difficult than others and award them justly.

By and large, we have these already!

It's why you see groups like Blue Devils on top.

Watch their show(s) again. Very rarely do you hear BD with pulse control problems by mid-season, if even that late. Now, keep that in mind as the sections go flying across the field, and the trumpets enter from behind the back hash and line up with the mellophones over mid-field on side two and the drum line who is in front of the front hash. We want our drum corps to be in time-- so when you see a drum corps keeping in time between the 35's, with the drumline centered behind them, and you see a group like BD or Crown achieving better results with outrageous staging and field coverage (last year's ballad from Crown illustrates the idea of this demand) , the judges will give the better overall number to the group with both CONTENT and ACHIEVEMENT.

Tons of people can tell what great ACHIEVEMENT looks like-- anyone who's marched knows in time, in tune, and etc.

But great CONTENT-- that requires both an ear/eye for what "works" in the moment, and also what is ultimately a more difficult/impressive effect. It's why we want vetted judges who have tons of experience.

Example, from this year: form control, which is a visual ensemble concern--

Blue Devils have multiple spots when they are running and marching through much-hated "scatter drill" moments and picking out big blocks and curved forms out of nowhere. Often these target sets of clarity are on the move themselves. Their paths likely will change from rep to rep with some of these moments. They still achieve these target forms and transformations with small but noticeable errors.

While Crown has plenty of moments of truly high demand, rarely (if ever) is this quasi improv-path approach necessary. Often it is regular, 90's-00's picture-to-picture drill, if a little sped up. Many of their impacts are merely halts with added body. They hit their forms with (again) small but noticeable errors. Who do we put ahead???

The judging community, achievement being equal, will ultimately reward the group with more challenging and effective content. It's why we see many of the results we do.

[bluesman]

a few things just in my opinion:

1 The Booing has been going on forever and from my travels through the summer it's a very small percentage, at least no more than usual through the decades.

2. You mentioned and even playing field.hmmmmmmmmmmmm is it ever that or has ever been? Corps go in to competition on an even playing field every year , now what one does with it, what talent is within the corps, show choice for particular corps and how it comes across, finances, management, etc etc. all play factors going into a new year of competition. I dont personally think we need compulsories and drag the activity back to the very thing why DCI and modern drum corps ( 1972 to now ) was formed.

3. You also mentioned what a designer or director stuck in a certain placement thinks they need to do to move forward.....well I think every corps 1-last does this either to move up or maintain or a # of reasons including challengs for their corps, new concepts,audience appeal ( subjective )Every corps does this and pretty much always has.

4. Your assesment on what may be harder to do a quard or double.( I know just an example ) but.., doubles havent been done as a rule for descades BUT when done nowadays its actually harder to control . There are way more elements that decide whats harder or not...what happens before it, after it and during, was body applied etc etc.....back to subjectiveness. this also goes for the marching examples you mentioned.

5. You also talked about stagnation of scores , No matter what the system is , what makes you think the outcomes as well as the corps at the top wouldn't be exactly the same.

So, has my opinion solved any of what you think the problems are..no, not at all Im afraid. I'm not disagreeing with you that some things do need to change. I do find it interesting in an activity that wants to move forward promotes and protects certain people ( judging community )that have been around forever. Now I'm not saying some arent just wonderful judges and have the best interest in the corps and the activity BUT I do know for certain many have just sealed themselves and their buds into a decades of power. This includes ( many the same people) _ WGI, and several band circuits. Maybe that's part of the problem ............again JMO

Thanks for taking the time to address my post. I have been a member and a fan of Drum Corps since viewing my first DCI show back in 1977 and have participated in or seen at least a couple of shows every year since so the history lesson was not needed. As a matter of fact I heard booing at my very first show and many times since.... but certainly not in my opinion on the scale that we are seeing today. I am well aware that these issues have been discussed here and have been around for decades. Does that mean that we should stop talking about them . Absolutely not. The examples I used to illustrate demand were very basic ..... I thought that would be obvious. They were intended as a means to further discussion and not as specific items demanding immediate attention. Two years ago on DCP someone introduced a topic entitled "Demand means nothing". Pages and pages and pages later nothing was resolved so here we are again asking the same questions about the judging system, what constitutes demand and how to award those corps that push themselves. I don't have the answers(only a few minor suggestions) as to what I see as fundamental problems in the current judging system. But unfortunately I am beginning to think that the solutions that have been put forth so far are only worsening the issue.

Edited June 26, 2013 by bluesman