Tez Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 In 2008, Phantom won with a 4th place guard, which was actually 0.7 behind the Blue Devil's winning guard. So I don't think being 0.5 behind in percussion is that big of a deal.... especially when it doesn't seem to be hurting their music ensemble scores (In 2008, Phantom's weaker guard also likely brought down their visual ensemble placement to 4th place). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShortAndFast Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Crown was only down 0.2 in drums to BD, so that's doesn't seem like the end of the world given that they beat BD on the other 7 sheets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plan9 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 In 2008, Phantom won with a 4th place guard, which was actually 0.7 behind the Blue Devil's winning guard. So I don't think being 0.5 behind in percussion is that big of a deal.... especially when it doesn't seem to be hurting their music ensemble scores (In 2008, Phantom's weaker guard also likely brought down their visual ensemble placement to 4th place). At finals 2008 BD was 1st in GE, Viz, Guard & Brass.........PR only took Percussion. So, yes....CC needs to pay attention or risk a similar fate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Spreads were thinner than melted butta. Will depend if they can stay the course of improvement. Won't matter too much if there's slight differential. 1) if you're talking about spreads in all captions? DEFINITELY! Crown had only .1 or .2 edge in any subcaption to Devs (except percussion), but the important thing is they had the slim edge in EVERY subcaption but percussion 2) if you're talking percussion? I personally am never too happy when a judge ties subcaptions. If a caption ends in a tie w/no ties in subs, then I'm more OK with that since it's just math. But tying subcaptions is kind of like not doing the only job you have, which is primarily to RANK each group! He tied both subcaptions for SCV/2nd (to different groups, mind you) ugh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tez Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 At finals 2008 BD was 1st in GE, Viz, Guard & Brass.........PR only took Percussion. So, yes....CC needs to pay attention or risk a similar fate. Good point... however, I would argue that in 2008, BD's weak percussion brought down their music ensemble scores as well (4th place, 0.7 behind Phantom). So far, this has not been happening to Crown this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banddad1 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 What is it that Crown needs to do to improve their Percussion scores? I am sure the kids are very talented amd they workm extremely hard. Is it the instruction that they are getting? Is it the written musical book that they are given to play? What is it? It seems like every year we see this same thing, the brass achieving very high and the percussion is lacking far behind. It would seem that the music judges would reflect some of the perc weaknesses in their scores as well. I dont get it. Anybody wanna shed some light on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actucker Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 What is it that Crown needs to do to improve their Percussion scores? I am sure the kids are very talented amd they workm extremely hard. Is it the instruction that they are getting? Is it the written musical book that they are given to play? What is it? It seems like every year we see this same thing, the brass achieving very high and the percussion is lacking far behind. It would seem that the music judges would reflect some of the perc weaknesses in their scores as well. I dont get it. Anybody wanna shed some light on this? They are improving their percussion scores (or more accurately, their placements). At the end of the day, it takes time to build a program. You look at the groups that are consistently in the running for top drums, and those staff's have been in place for a long time. Johnson has been at BD for a while. Mac was at Cavs for 3 years before they won (and that front staff has been in the family for over a decade even under Cassela). Colin has been at Cadets for (I think) 7 years, and before him, Aungst was there forever and won a ton of Sanford titles. Particularly with something as precise as percussion, you have to have an established program to get to the top. Even Rennick, when he went to SCV has been there a couple of years, and they are just now really getting rolling. With Crown, there has been a lot of changeover in staff. Last year was Hannum's first year writing for them. Before that it was Lee Beddis. Can't remember who was before that. Brian Tinkel was there for a while. Jeff Queen. There hasn't been enough time to really establish a program, whereas Harloff has been there long enough to build up a core of vets that know what to expect and how to run the program. Consistent instruction is a huge factor at any level. That being said, bringing in a ringer like Glen Crosby doesn't hurt. He just stands there and people play cleaner. If I'm hearing right, he's been on tour more this year than last. If that keeps up, they'll be in good shape. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perc2100 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 0.2 behind BD and 0.5 behind Cadets, the only 2 real threats to a title. Those are pretty good spreads and I'll take them anyday. Remember, percussion gets cut in half. GREAT point/reminder for the uninitiated! Remember this: Phantom Regiment won in 2008 by .025, the slimmest of margins. They're largest spread came in percussion, with Regiment winning and BD placing 5th, but with a .85 spread! That's almost a full point, and arguably in a race where everything else was pretty equal, with BD winning GE & Vis (GE was very close, but Phantom was 3rd in Vis) and Phantom winning Music (remember BD's battery had some pretty big problems on Finals night which didn't help their Music Performance caption). So with an almost full point spread in percussion, Phantom was able to win by the smallest spread possible. This year, at least in early July, Crown is pretty solid in everything else across the board, with them winning every other subcaption except for Percussion. In other words, I suspect Crown's brass is strong enough to overcompensate for their under-performing percussion, thus giving them the small edge in Analysis. Based on tonight's scores, if BD scored a full point higher in percussion (giving them a 1.2 spread), and the rest of the scores/spreads remained the same, Crown would still have won by over a point (unless I'm doing the math wrong, which is possible with it being summer and my brain being more relaxed this time of year). To put it another way: 1) Crown is strong across the board but percussion which means they can 'drop' percussion by a bit and still be OK 2) Cadets being strong, and beating BD in Vis, Guard, Brass & Percussion (i.e. putting more of a spread between BD & Crown) REALLY helps Crown. BD & Cadets trade 2nd places with Crown beating them both in all but percussion. So far, it would seem that Crown is in the driver's seat and it's up to BD or Cadets to either make some radical (ish) changes and/or clean faster/better than Crown in everything but percussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterA Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 1) if you're talking about spreads in all captions? DEFINITELY! Crown had only .1 or .2 edge in any subcaption to Devs (except percussion), but the important thing is they had the slim edge in EVERY subcaption but percussion 2) if you're talking percussion? I personally am never too happy when a judge ties subcaptions. If a caption ends in a tie w/no ties in subs, then I'm more OK with that since it's just math. But tying subcaptions is kind of like not doing the only job you have, which is primarily to RANK each group! He tied both subcaptions for SCV/2nd (to different groups, mind you) ugh... I can understand that you aren't happy if a judge ties subcaptions, but what if the 2 corps are close to identical in difficulty and performance level? I would much rather see a tie in a subcaption if the judge truly believe each corps is equal. I think sometimes in that case that the judge would give the edge to the corps with the name/reputation, which really would not be fair to the other corps. As far as Crown percussion keeping them from a title, it is hard to say, but I do think finals could end up with the top 4 corps being less than a point difference in score. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skevinp Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I personally am never too happy when a judge ties subcaptions. If a caption ends in a tie w/no ties in subs, then I'm more OK with that since it's just math. But tying subcaptions is kind of like not doing the only job you have, which is primarily to RANK each group! He tied both subcaptions for SCV/2nd (to different groups, mind you) ugh... I thought his job was primarily to SCORE the corps. I have never understood the argument that a judge should force a score that is not deserved just to make one higher than the other. Within the caption, since they are added together anyway, breaking a subcaption tie might actually cause a caption tie and, conversely, awarding a subcaption tie might actually prevent a caption tie. And overall, artificially breaking a caption tie might cause a final score tie and awarding a caption tie might prevent a final score tie. In any case, it would elevate the significance of the caption over the others by artificially imposing a spread that isn't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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