2muchcoffeeman Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 The thought was since it was not a "real" US flag, the US Flag Code did not apply. It seems that the US Flag Code covers the US flag and anything the represents the US flag. Again: Neither DCI nor anyone else is obligated to heed anything in the United States code related to the display of the American flag. The code contains all sorts of useful and worthy instructions about proper respect to the flag. And it does instruct agencies of the federal government to follow the code. But because display of the flag is a form of speech and because the First Amendment forbids government control of speech, the U.S. Flag Code has no authority over private citizens, including the members of DCI. DCI can decide that it wants to follow the U.S. code in matters regarding the flag. But that is DCI's own decision to make. Does anyone know if DCI rules specifically adopt the U.S. Flag Code as the rules that will apply in competitions? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamarag Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Does anyone know if DCI rules specifically adopt the U.S. Flag Code as the rules that will apply in competitions? The DCI regulations regarding US Flag Code were still in the rule book as of a couple of years ago (2010 or so). I would feel comfortable in assuming they are still there. The real question is if the timing and penalty judges know and apply those rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scvjesse Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 No where in my post s do I use the word desecration. That is another poster's term and renders a judgment far more extreme than the subjective word I used. The word you used was disrespect. Do you really think that this corps (their design team and especially their members) meant ANY disrespect to anyone with their performance? If anything, it's the exact opposite of that word. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeptic Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) Give me a break....really? This exact same debate came up on the DCA side of things last year when the Hurricanes used flags that resembled the Great Britain flag. Ill say the same thing I said there... It is a REPRESENTATION of a flag, not an actual flag. Think of the 4th of July here in the states... We make napkins that REPRESENT the US flag and we wipe our dirty faces and hands with them. We make cups, bikinis, door mats, towels, mini flags kids drop on the ground, flip flops, hats, etc... they all REPRESENT the flag but are not the actual flag. I dont see people getting all up in arms about that. Same thing can be said about SCVs guard flags that resemble the French flag. Get over it. Edited August 6, 2013 by skeptic 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerF Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Drilltech: Quit trying to create *drama* and controversy when none is there. You lose. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 However, the question remains concerning Santa Clara's use of the French national tricolors as a flash flag which is tossed and spun during Les Mis. Consider the chagrin of the administration of the only competitive drum corps in France, from Brittany I think, who are here this week to view DCI East and DCI championships with the hope of bringing their young corps one day to Open Class championships or DCA's All-age. Well this is interesting... I guess as the official "liaison" for the French directors in America right now, I can chime in. First of all, it should be noted that my friends have NOT seen SCV's show yet (outside of older FN videos), because I was at the airport picking them up while SCV was performing on Friday night. They were at Saturday in Allentown to see their member perform, and they will be at finals with me. I'll also echo the sentiment that until we can conclusively determine the flag being 'tossed' is an actual french flag, this is all a bit speculative. However, since this is DCP... I can and will say quite decisively that my French friends would not care about the flag being used that way in a Les Mis show. Nevermind that we actually had this conversation last night in the car, but there is also video evidence... Id say watch it all, but if you are short on time, focus on the snare drummer at the top of the eiffel tower set at 820-830 I wrote the music and drill for this show - but that little add-on was not something I thought of, or even knew about until I saw the video. Yes...its a little toy flag, but in the multicam video, it looks accurate enough. The point remains... that they used a french flag as a prop, and tossed it out onto the field when they were done with it. And, im pretty sure it was done without a second thought. Now - 2 French people are no more qualified to speak for their country any more than any 2 Americans can speak for all of ours. But it should give some insight into the culture, and the general likelihood of someone getting offended. While the "Modern French" can be quite defensive of their culture, language, food, and ideas, I think it is safe to say that they dont have quite the same fervor towards pure patriotism that Americans do. Its a fine, and somewhat strange distinction, but i think it makes sense, when you consider a loyalty to family and regions, as compared to governments and flags... Anyway, none of this is really going to change anybody's mind, nor should it. If one finds this treatment of a nation's flag to be offensive, then it wont and shouldn't matter that a couple of people from the country aren't offended by it, and I certainly wont try to change your mind. I just felt it an interesting insight from someone very close to the source... 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrownStarr Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 The word you used was disrespect. Do you really think that this corps (their design team and especially their members) meant ANY disrespect to anyone with their performance? If anything, it's the exact opposite of that word. I think their intent is important, but you don't have to mean disrespect to cause it, or to cause it to be perceived. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euponitone Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 I think their intent is important, but you don't have to mean disrespect to cause it, or to cause it to be perceived. Absolutely. And a concept people so rarely understand (whether or not it applies here is another matter, of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drilltech1 Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 (edited) Well this is interesting... I guess as the official "liaison" for the French directors in America right now, I can chime in. First of all, it should be noted that my friends have NOT seen SCV's show yet (outside of older FN videos), because I was at the airport picking them up while SCV was performing on Friday night. They were at Saturday in Allentown to see their member perform, and they will be at finals with me. I'll also echo the sentiment that until we can conclusively determine the flag being 'tossed' is an actual french flag, this is all a bit speculative. However, since this is DCP... I can and will say quite decisively that my French friends would not care about the flag being used that way in a Les Mis show. Nevermind that we actually had this conversation last night in the car, but there is also video evidence... Id say watch it all, but if you are short on time, focus on the snare drummer at the top of the eiffel tower set at 820-830 I wrote the music and drill for this show - but that little add-on was not something I thought of, or even knew about until I saw the video. Yes...its a little toy flag, but in the multicam video, it looks accurate enough. The point remains... that they used a french flag as a prop, and tossed it out onto the field when they were done with it. And, im pretty sure it was done without a second thought. Now - 2 French people are no more qualified to speak for their country any more than any 2 Americans can speak for all of ours. But it should give some insight into the culture, and the general likelihood of someone getting offended. While the "Modern French" can be quite defensive of their culture, language, food, and ideas, I think it is safe to say that they dont have quite the same fervor towards pure patriotism that Americans do. Its a fine, and somewhat strange distinction, but i think it makes sense, when you consider a loyalty to family and regions, as compared to governments and flags... Anyway, none of this is really going to change anybody's mind, nor should it. If one finds this treatment of a nation's flag to be offensive, then it wont and shouldn't matter that a couple of people from the country aren't offended by it, and I certainly wont try to change your mind. I just felt it an interesting insight from someone very close to the source... Euponitone, Thank you for the thought out post and what you present. There are three levels to the discussion: does the Flag code apply currently and in this situation; did the penalty judge do a thorough job, and was their disrespect as a result ? CrownStarr shows a thoughtful aspect that the subjective matter of disrespect may not be intended but maybe a consequence. You thoughtfully explain that no disrespect was intended nor perceived by those for whom the French flag would mean more. That still leaves the matter of does the flag code apply in today's DCI or is it all a world of artistic perception, penalties or not? Either way, the SCV homers are out, emotions are up, and SCV does have a very emotional and energetic show, with or without penalties. Adieu. P.S. Nice drill by the way Edited August 6, 2013 by drilltech1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFZFAN Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 They'll never get a penalty like drilltech suggests. It will never happen - nor should it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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