Two questions about G bugles.

[skajerk]

Hey now!!

[JimF-LowBari]

Basically, the Gs were getting harder and harder to keep repaired, and less were being made. There were (literally) hundreds more corps in the 70s, and all those horns were recycled into the DCI pot as the corps disappeared. So the switch wasn't nec. to Bb... it was "any key." Bb is just easiest to obtain.

Intonation? Go back and listen to some of the greats. BD's T.O in '82., Cadets' Jeremiah in '85, Suncoast Sound's Adventures in Time in '86, Phantom's New World Symphony in '89 to name a quick few (all of those on TWO-VALVED Gs). Listen to the first High Brass Trophy winner in the Bb era: 2000 Cadets had intonation problems in the last push. They sure as hell didn't when they blasted through '85's "Candide" at 192 bmp. Another to relive is Cadets 1983. They had NO money and probably the crappiest set of horns in the top 12 (certainly the top 6). Best of luck finding a single out of tune tone.

I've said it 1,000 times: I prefer the brightness of the G harmonics over the minor 6th drop to the Bb harmonics. Fine for bands, but find that YT video titled something like "Before DCI Needed Amplification." Those are all G.

Glad you put in years with your thoughts on G lines. Played on G piston/rotor, G 2v and G 3v with my corps and own Gs with 1v, 2v and P/R. My opinion is it wasn't the key that made the difference in any lack of intonation but how well the horns were built and how easy they were to go out of tune with overblowing. Edit: Forgot about style of playing being taught. Just get the feeling that people without any knowledge believe that the key was the only difference BITD and nothing could be further from the truth.

And personally any difference I hear at DCA in todays lines can be credited/blamed on difference manufacturer than difference key.

Edited August 11, 2013 by JimF-LowBari

[JimF-LowBari]

I can't hear the horn line....it doesn't penetrate or excite the audience. Have you ever heard G?

Are horn lines taught to peel paint/knowck 'em over the top railing/make ears bleed like BITD or is blending the thing now? Played in the 70s and we were in the front of the change to get away from the "loud is good, louder is better" school of thought. Any blared or over blowing we caught Hell. In the Alumni-type corps I was with the teaching was blend first and being loud as Hades well never....

[G-horns]

You know? I haven't been on this site for quite a while and what pops up? Discussion on G vs. Bb. So for the benefit of those who haven't seen it before, here's my take...

I started playing a single piston G-D bugle when I was 7 years old. It was a piece of crap but I didn't know any better. You either left the valve out or pushed it in. Easy. Then I picked up trumpet in school. All of a sudden I was faced with "What buttons do I press?" and the panic that ensued if you pushed the wrong valve or combination. Later, I played a piston/slide G-D, piston/rotor G-F, 2V and 3V. All had their good points and bad points. I still think the Olds Ultratone was the balls for sopranos, followed closely by the King 2V. All these are G bugles. FWIW, I also blew a King Super 20 medium bore trumpet at the same time, so I'm familiar with the whole "pitch matching" issue. For me, if you are a good musician, it doesn't matter what key the instrument is in. You will adjust for things like intonation, tone quality and the limitations of the beast. Just ask any mellophone player - regardless of the key.

If the music doesn't sound bright, it isn't just because it's being played on Bb or F horns. More likely, the mouthpiece, bore of the horn (bigger bore usually means darker sound) and the key selected by the arranger have contributed to the lack of brightness. Listen to the top big bands and tell me trumpet 1 and 2 are not bright enough on the best charts. Good arranging has more to do with it than most imagine or admit.

[Soprano Martin]

We can 'what if' all we want. Personally, I love my G horns, they are a blast to play and as others have said any competent player can easily play them in tune with good instruction.

But regardless, they aren't coming back. Sorry!

I can't say that it upsets me, I'm glad I've learned to play them and have had the opportunity to use them, but I have Bb trumpets every bit as good and powerful as my sops (I have a Kanstul 103 Collesium, a Bb version of their 3v powerbore sops :) )

[alumniof]

If you can't hear current hornlines I think you might have a different problem.

I do music recording for a living .... classical music....and I can hear grass grow. Not that grass. My guest at Allentown and the people around me said the same thing....and I come from the bugle era. You?

[IllianaLancerContra]

I suspect the top corps wouldn't have too many problems with intonation: Gino Cipriani, Donnie VanDoren, John Meehan have all taught incredible horn lines who played G horns. I think you'd more likely notice the difference on the middle and especially lower end of the talent spectrum. Part of the "fun" of marching a G horn was learning different fingerings from the instruments you were used to playing in HS or college. The best of the best were able to adjust because, well, they're the best. Others struggled a bit, and I think that now that we haven't had to worry about G bugles in, what, over a decade it would be a much harder sell & transition.

I'm not sure GE would account so much for G or any-key brass: great playing = great playing, poor intonation will kill any Music sheets involving brass (Brass, MA, GE Music) regardless of instrumentation or key.

Also, I've heard from directors and designers in the late 90's that the push to move to any key was more of a financial one, as someone else has already mentioned. Blue Devils were winning brass in the late 90's on G horns but still pushing for any key: it's not like BD was afraid that G's were holding them back at all :tongue:/>/>

That I don't know. Was that before the switch to any key, maybe? I can't imagine there would be ANY need for that now with only 30ish drum corps, most of which (if not all) would not switch back to G. Scholastic programs, of course, will stick with traditional instrumentation as they have for quote awhile: band directors would not consider switching their instruments over to G brass just to maybe play a little louder (at the expense of intonation and easy playability vs kids having to switch instruments and learned fingerings from marching-concert season).

There is NO reason that a G horn (or any key for that matter) has to be out of tune - if a brass designer/engineer/architect/manufacturer (or whatever they are called) would start with a hunk of brass & build a set of horns - they could make G horns just as easy to keep in tune as Bb.

Edited August 12, 2013 by IllianaLancerContra

[N.E. Brigand]

I've said it 1,000 times: I prefer the brightness of the G harmonics over the minor 6th drop to the Bb harmonics.

Please pardon my ignorance: so are Bb horns lower-pitched and therefore longer than G horns, and is that why G horns sounded louder (as most people seem to agree)--because there is less air to move?

[Lead]

There's something in the corner of my brain that remembers Cadets and BD being the first two corps to replace their horns in 2000. They finished 1, 2 that year in horns. But I also think that was Gino's first year doing Cadets.

Please correct if any of this isn't right!!! (The 1,2 finish is correct.)

This is correct. BTW, my final year marching was 2000 and I remember the difference being MASSIVE and glaring when hearing these guys perform.

Telling sign: Cavaliers and Cadets tied for the win in 2000... Cavs on Gs and Cadets on Bbs. Go listen to both shows back-to-back and you will notice the difference :)

Another telling sign: I went to Michigan City this year with my buddy who is a drum guy and basically worships Cavaliers 2000 show. At Michigan City Cavvies played the Niagara Falls opener as part of their encore. He turned to me with a funny look on his face and said, "why doesn't this sound right?" I said... "Bbs, not G bugles like you're used to listening to." He said, "so THAT's what you're always talking about? Now I understand." :)

[burgerbob]

Please pardon my ignorance: so are Bb horns lower-pitched and therefore longer than G horns, and is that why G horns sounded louder (as most people seem to agree)--because there is less air to move?

Gs are lower than Bbs (by a minor third), at least in the case of the sopranos, euphs, and contras. G mellophones are a whole step higher than modern F mellophones, and who even knows about the baritones.