chasgroh Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Well-said, Fred!!! I agree... there are thousands of fans who do not, for whatever reasons, get a chance to see a given corps multiple times during a season. That's where the "being able to enjoy it at face value, on first/only viewing" concept is a valid one, I think. ...even "in the day" you could glean more details from seeing performances multiple times, Fran. Not to say "face value" is some kind of Atlantis in modern corps...I saw BD for the first time and *wanted* to see it again, but if I hadn't been able to, it still finalized with me, show-wise. I think it's impossible to design a show for a football field that *will* allow spectators to see it all...I don't think our eyes, and therefore brains, can do it! Think about how many times you look at a show and zero-in on, say, a drum feature...what else is going on? OH, now maybe you check out the guard doing some fancy accompaniment and you miss a stick toss...see? Nah, layering is here to stay and I say bravo! I mean, do you think the design teams at VK thought about such simplicity? Well, surely in concept, as that is the foundation of solid communication...but the end result requires many viewings to *get* all the fun stuff we put in, alot of the time day of the performance!...'nuff said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Windish Posted August 13, 2013 Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 ...even "in the day" you could glean more details from seeing performances multiple times, Fran. Not to say "face value" is some kind of Atlantis in modern corps...I saw BD for the first time and *wanted* to see it again, but if I hadn't been able to, it still finalized with me, show-wise. I think it's impossible to design a show for a football field that *will* allow spectators to see it all...I don't think our eyes, and therefore brains, can do it! Think about how many times you look at a show and zero-in on, say, a drum feature...what else is going on? OH, now maybe you check out the guard doing some fancy accompaniment and you miss a stick toss...see? Nah, layering is here to stay and I say bravo! I mean, do you think the design teams at VK thought about such simplicity? Well, surely in concept, as that is the foundation of solid communication...but the end result requires many viewings to *get* all the fun stuff we put in, alot of the time day of the performance!...'nuff said... Charlie, Isn't that our dilemma? We are structured now on a tour schedule, live admission events, to sustain us. We hope everyone's local audience will be enough to sustain us. To me, that means, we have ONE shot to hook our audience. A neighborhood person who purchases a ticket in Erie, PA is unlikely to purchase another ticket some place else. I mean, isn't the ultimate success providing something appealing that does not require you to actually go somewhere? On multiple occasions, too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 honestly...150 members in an NFL stadium.....80 members in an arena..... We're marching band. We are only going to appeal to a subset of society 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasgroh Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Charlie, Isn't that our dilemma? We are structured now on a tour schedule, live admission events, to sustain us. We hope everyone's local audience will be enough to sustain us. To me, that means, we have ONE shot to hook our audience. A neighborhood person who purchases a ticket in Erie, PA is unlikely to purchase another ticket some place else. I mean, isn't the ultimate success providing something appealing that does not require you to actually go somewhere? On multiple occasions, too! ...you're right, Fred. If *I* were in charge of getting any given show onto the field I would most definitely want it resonating with the crowd, from the get-go. This is a complex problem you've posited; it just may be that it's being dealt with by most of our drum corps (including Open Class)...there were many crowd-friendly shows this year, I think. Colts, which I had the honor and extreme pleasure of working with early in the season, had a wonderful take on "Field of Dreams"...Troopers were, well, the TROOPERS...Phantom even had a VK prop! (hehehe)...Mandarins had the best narration yet, and a solid story to go along with a solid corps...SCV had to steal your heart! So, it seems that the diversions and envelope-pushing is coming from the top groups, and most of them had great shows (with, of course, the obligatory clunker here and there)...it's really just BD who've made design decisions to go beyond what is "normal" and accessible for our activity. Only they do it so well it really IS art. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe this stuff is necessary...I really think we need to push it to the extreme sometimes. The audience demographic across the country is vastly different, the only time it galvanizes is at nats, really...I would love for our niche to succeed on the fiscal level so we can continue to produce this wide panoply of shows and, like you, I'm concerned. I'm concerned for the Open Class and the lower part of the food chain; for them the row is tougher to hoe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwillis35 Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 The OP's discourse does ask a good question regarding content for field. I think many of us have stated for years that a lot of the nuances in a drum corps show, especially these modern shows, do NOT translate well to a football field. It's not so much that people are incapable of understanding the nuances, but rather we can't see them. The football field is a completely different beast when performing. Stadium seating can sometimes be wonderful, with stands that meet the field (no track) and where the angle for the stands is such that top to bottom people get a good view of things. In most cases, however, fans are too far away to see the play-acting in the guard, to understand some of the interpretive dance and gestures, to catch all the little details in uniform and costume, and because of the size of a football field we simply can't take it all in on one viewing. The effect of BD's shows on the masses has been underwhelming. I think most of us realize how amazing BD is, how well they perform, and I have liked some of their recent shows a lot (2009, 2010, 2011). Where they lose the crowd is with these amazing subtleties that often do not translate from field to bleacher. Others have suffered here as well. The Cadets 2008 show, with the play acting on the field, was a flop; Bluecoats 2009 show, Cadets 2005 to some extent (although I thought the effect of this show was much stronger in the stands than most given the content), and many other examples. As I watched Finals on the webcast I was constantly in conversation with a buddy about some of the content we were seeing that would not translate to the bleachers and to the fans. When you watch multi-cam this becomes very apparent. In fact, some shows are WAY MORE ENJOYABLE on multi-cam that when seen live; and this speaks to the OP's initial comments. Is this a good thing? Not for live performance. Not unless you can be both. As long as drum corps continue to perform on a football field we will have these discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alumniof Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 If DCI wants groupies to follow them around the country....then they are closer to that than the alternative.....which is doing shows focused on entertaining the person buying the ticket. Which means relating to them and their life. That's where a designer....at this point is a genius. Making your kids do all of that and nobody really clapping for you or liking you is abuse and ego and self interest at the expense of the kids you claim to love. There was not a single show I saw this year that I would travel and spend money on a second viewing. I was bored....my guest needed a 5 hour energy and she was in HS band. Hollywood doesn't produce movies so it will be viewed 10 times. I mean marketing failure grossly. If you want ##### in the seats and money....appeal to the general public so a family of four will have a reason to want to go. BTW...since the change to Bob....has music education embraced DCI. I just read an article online about some successful band program....discouraging DCI until kids graduate. DCI is an organization for itself and its niche. That's fine. Just realize why there are financial issues and other than your groupies....nobody cares. And that's a fact. I remember only the stuff I laughed at in Allentown and I marched for several years in DCIs top 6 corps in the eighties. I literally so not remember nor does it bother me that I don't remember much what anyone did. I listened, watched closely, paid attention. It was that boring. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimefan Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 If DCI wants groupies to follow them around the country....then they are closer to that than the alternative.....which is doing shows focused on entertaining the person buying the ticket. Which means relating to them and their life. That's where a designer....at this point is a genius. Making your kids do all of that and nobody really clapping for you or liking you is abuse and ego and self interest at the expense of the kids you claim to love. There was not a single show I saw this year that I would travel and spend money on a second viewing. I was bored....my guest needed a 5 hour energy and she was in HS band. Hollywood doesn't produce movies so it will be viewed 10 times. I mean marketing failure grossly. If you want ##### in the seats and money....appeal to the general public so a family of four will have a reason to want to go. BTW...since the change to Bob....has music education embraced DCI. I just read an article online about some successful band program....discouraging DCI until kids graduate. DCI is an organization for itself and its niche. That's fine. Just realize why there are financial issues and other than your groupies....nobody cares. And that's a fact. I remember only the stuff I laughed at in Allentown and I marched for several years in DCIs top 6 corps in the eighties. I literally so not remember nor does it bother me that I don't remember much what anyone did. I listened, watched closely, paid attention. It was that boring. very well stated. I marched the 80s also, and every corps played fan friendly music for the most part. Were the drills easy and boring? Yes, but the music knocked the average fans socks off and there were standing ovations at regular intervals DURING the show. Todays corps are almost all ALLSTAR corps, and only the top instructors and directors are left. Egos are enormous. The activity has become all about them and fan be ######. This year the Devils remind me a lot of the Star of Indianas Barber and Bartok show. It took years before people ever got it. Now a lot of people look back and think it was a generation ahead of its time. Either way, it is sad to see that we can't have corps with identities for music. Give me the old time music that was exciting without making me do triginometry to enjoy it. Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 ...you're right, Fred. If *I* were in charge of getting any given show onto the field I would most definitely want it resonating with the crowd, from the get-go. Charlie, I was about to post similar thoughts to what Fred said, but he beat me to it. I'm fine with shows that, if you view them multiple times, you "get" more of what they're trying to accomplish. But I think those same shows also need to be structured so a one-time viewer also can "get" them, without having to follow their progress at other shows, or by having to "educate" themselves by researching the source material. Unfortunately for me, I only had a chance to see one DCI show in person this year, in West Chester, PA. (Not including the opening-weekend show in the movie theaters that I also viewed.) Crown and Cadets at West Chester... I enjoyed the heck out of both those shows, without knowing much about the source material, the "intent" behind the show theme, and without having seen them several times. They were "face value" shows to me. Hats off to both those corps for designing their product in that fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 We can have shows that appeal to the one-time viewer, and also include layers and details that encourage repeat viewing. This is not an either-or proposition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 We can have shows that appeal to the one-time viewer, and also include layers and details that encourage repeat viewing. This is not an either-or proposition. That is true, and as Fran said, both Crown and Cadets did exactly that. We were at the same show, coincidentally. Blue Devils I only saw online, but I enjoyed them in both 2012 and 2013, but I did not see them live, so it is hard to make a real assessment. Online they came across very well to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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