jjeffeory Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 I think the reason for the conversion was two fold. Bb/F instruments are in the end cheaper. And they help recruitment. One thing no one has mentioned is the fact that all G bugle music was written in treble clef. So a trombone player comes into 1970's drum corps, has to learn to use a horizontal piston valve with one hand and a rotary valve with the other, in addition to learning how to read treble clef. Whether you come down on the side of Bb/F or G, the intonation now is WAY better than the 70's and 80's. Of course, that could be due to the instruments, or maybe just the players are better. As a Euph player BITD, I had to learn to read music in Bass Clef, Treble Clef, Alto Clef, AND Tenor Clef depending on the music. I know that trombone players need to also do this ( maybe NOT the treble clef so much, but they have to learn the other clefs too). Also, there are so many baritone/euph players that get their start on trumpet and then later switch over to baritone. Since trumpet music is written in treble clef, we see bass clef and treble clef parts for the baritones as a matter of course. Any decent baritone player should be able to switch between bass clef and treble clef, period. That adjustment isn't too difficult. Also, It doesn't look like Bb/F instruments are REALLY cheaper... I know this rule change was marketed on that, but look at the reality: Kanstul Model 100 G Soprano MSRP is $880; Model 102 G Power Bore MSRP is $950. A Model 103 Bb Marching Trumpet MSRP is $1,705! Bb is DOUBLE the price of G! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 In an earlier thread about this subject, someone posted this link to a John Simpson article describing the difference and how it involved the range of overtones the instruments could handle. Having competed in a Simpson horn line, I respect his opinion on any and all things bugle related... As I KEEP saying, I miss the overtone series on those G horns.... "As each overtone is produced, the intervals between them become smaller. I repeat . . . the higher the overtones, the brighter the sound. Today’s corps, using Bb instruments, are unable to produce the unique sound of the G instrument because they cannot produce the upper modes." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgerbob Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 In an earlier thread about this subject, someone posted this link to a John Simpson article describing the difference and how it involved the range of overtones the instruments could handle. Having competed in a Simpson horn line, I respect his opinion on any and all things bugle related... I understand his point, with how G bugles were usually played higher in the overtone series, but the idea he gives for today (pushing down the third valve) is idiotic. Only way to put it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 I understand his point, with how G bugles were usually played higher in the overtone series, but the idea he gives for today (pushing down the third valve) is idiotic. Only way to put it. That's what people had to do to practice their parts before their horns were issued. It certainly was more difficult than actually playing a G bugle for me. Also, it was pretty out of tune on certain notes for sure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Kanstul Model 100 G Soprano MSRP is $880; Model 102 G Power Bore MSRP is $950. A Model 103 Bb Marching Trumpet MSRP is $1,705! Bb is DOUBLE the price of G! Kanstul doesn't do any deals though for drum corps or bands. I promise that the corps that are sponsored by Yamaha, King, or Jupiter are paying that for their instruments. What we mortals see on the website isn't the same as what the corps directors are paying in the fall to replace parts of their lines. Because Kanstul doesn't do deals is probably the reason no one plays their instruments anymore, besides the fact that they're built like tanks and can last forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjeffeory Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Kanstul doesn't do any deals though for drum corps or bands. I promise that the corps that are sponsored by Yamaha, King, or Jupiter are paying that for their instruments. What we mortals see on the website isn't the same as what the corps directors are paying in the fall to replace parts of their lines. Because Kanstul doesn't do deals is probably the reason no one plays their instruments anymore, besides the fact that they're built like tanks and can last forever. Ah, well that would make sense. I hope corps are getting deals for the Bb horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsubone Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Ah, well that would make sense. I hope corps are getting deals for the Bb horns. They are getting pretty sweet deals. Most corps I believe also try and sell off their horns at the end of each season or every other season to help finance buying new ones. Part of the whole sponsorship thing is that they get a cut price, and the manufacturer gets to use them in ads and stuff like that. Probably why corps pick certain horn and drum manufacturers, since they have to balance out best deal with best quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 I understand his point, with how G bugles were usually played higher in the overtone series, but the idea he gives for today (pushing down the third valve) is idiotic. Only way to put it. You must have missed Chuck Mangione when he co-hosted DCI. They had a film clip of him talking to a corps asking what to do with the third valve. The members yelled "Cut It Off" and Chuck looked like they wanted him to cut something else off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 (edited) Besides the fact that they're (Kanstul) built like tanks and can last forever. Just like BITD with P/R and earlier horns... Hanover uses G Kanstuls and taking care of the silver finish is the hardest thing I know of since it scratches easily. No silver polish as it's too abrasive, just soap, water and lot of drying off before the water marks kick in. Bari I had had a problem with one of the valve sleeves getting out of alignment and couldn't get the valve out or back in.... Every other year or so, the horn shop would see me.... But considering it came used from another corps about 10 years ago (and no idea where or when it was before) Edited August 19, 2013 by JimF-LowBari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 1376868798[/url]' post='3314445']As I KEEP saying, I miss the overtone series on those G horns.... "As each overtone is produced, the intervals between them become smaller. I repeat . . . the higher the overtones, the brighter the sound. Today's corps, using Bb instruments, are unable to produce the unique sound of the G instrument because they cannot produce the upper modes." WoulgcKing tool a line if a corps wanted a line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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