Can someone explain the G Bugles?

[onfirepro]

I feel like instruments play a big role. I'm not a fan of the old bugle days due to the intonation problems and brash tone. It makes me cringe and that's not good. But Crown has a great combination. A great set of instruments, a legendary arranger in Michael Klesh and to round it off the Harloff Brothers. That holy trinity is why Crown has a much warmer and in tune sound that what I feel you could ever find pre-2002.

Opinions of a brass guy.

I can't say I agree about the sound of bugles, but I guess that depends on how old is old in your post. Even after taking recording quality into consideration of various DCI events, I think those G bugle sounds of the late 80's and throughout the nineties all the way up to '99 were incredible. However, on occasion, the intonation problems would become obvious, (the opening soprano lines of Madison '88's opener spring to mind).

You are spot on in your assessment of Crown. For example, their 2006 brass ensemble sounded unbelievable. It always stood out even among the higher placed corps. Crown 06 one of my all time favorite DCI shows from sound alone, not to mention a great musical selection and top notch drill. I'm glad you explained how they were able to achieve that rich, warm and delightfully fat sound through a balance of instrument choice and arrangement. I didn't know that, thanks for the info.

[danielray]

[danielray]

Let me give it to you straight so you can get it (my goal anyway).

Let me give it to you straight...

I stood in front of one of the best-equipped and best performing G lines in history.

The instruments were a complete mess in terms of intonation (and we had brand new custom horns). How much time and energy was wasted because of the gymnastics required to TRY to play in tune (most didn't succeed)?

Anyway, even if those lines would've had Bb horns (which would have been amazing), they still wouldn't hold a candle to the kids these days. They're not even human. :-)

Finally, moving to Bb saved the activity (little debate among administration that this was a critical move financially)... and was something that should've been done in the 1970's.

[CrunchyTenor]

A couple of other things to consider...

1) More corps BITD meant the good and great players were spread out over more corps, especially before corps-hopping and ring-chasing became popular. Now they're concentrated in fewer (and fewer) corps.

2) Corps used to have a limit of 128 members. Most upper-tier corps had 60-64 brass. Now, with a 150 member limit, brass lines of 80 or more are common. (Still, IMO, 80 Bb players still can't match 60 G players for volume.)

3) Corps are now together for 6+ weeks after move-in. BITD, there was no "move-in". You lived in town, or close to it. Rehearsals were not all day, every day until the last three weeks or so of the season.

4) What was the only thing Yamaha didn't make for drum corps before 2000? G bugles. They made marching percussion (though when I asked them about it in 1978 they weren't interested), Bb/F brass, and amplification equipment and electronic instruments and emulators. Can you see how this happened, and where it has gone since?

5) Like an earlier poster, I wonder what would happen if a top-tier brassline switched to a matched set of G brass AND DIDN'T TELL ANYONE? Would the audience, and more importantly the judges, know and fairly adjudicate? Say they're scoring relatively well in brass and music ensemble, then revealed the change, would they still be competitive? Or would there suddenly be a bias? Wish I had the funds and opportunity to test the theory.

6) I'm a drummer, but I still thought it was cool that our brass players used bugles with a piston and rotor, and that we were the first corps to use G/F p/r bugles. We were also the first to use 2V sopranos by special permission from DCI to field test them for American Heritage (King). (BTW, an interesting side note: The bells were stamped "Benge".)

7) I challenge any modern corps to use the same set of brass (in any key) and percussion for 5 consecutive years. That's another lesson learned BITD. Respect for your equipment, and maintaining it.

8) The voicing of a trumpet is soprano in the brass choir. The tuba is the contrabass voice. Why not maintain the voice designation instead of trumpet and tuba? Shouldn't it still make sense to a bunch of music majors?

Just more fuel for the discussion.

Garry in Vegas

Edited September 9, 2013 by CrunchyTenor

[MikeD]

A couple of other things to consider...

1) More corps BITD meant the good and great players were spread out over more corps, especially before corps-hopping and ring-chasing became popular. Now they're concentrated in fewer (and fewer) corps.

Members moved around even pre-DCI. Lots of Garden State Circuit class 'B' members moved up to class 'A' corps like Blessed Sac, Garfield, St Lucy's, Hawthorne, Bayonne, etc...It was done all the time. One reason the town of Garfield did not support the Cadets all that much was that very few local kids actually marched...the Epochs GSC corps was started, as I understand it, because few of the Garfield Plebes at the time were moving up, as more experienced members came into the corps. When I think about our 71 drumline...of the 4 timpani, 4 snares and 3 tri-toms, only one snare came up through the Plebes. The rest came from various GSC corps in North Jersey.

2) Corps used to have a limit of 128 members. Most upper-tier corps had 60-64 brass. Now, with a 150 member limit, brass lines of 80 or more are common. (Still, IMO, 80 Bb players still can't match 60 G players for volume.)

Sure they could, if arrangements were in the same style and the staffs wanted the horn lines to produce the same sort of sound as produced back then. Those things have a lot more impact on volume than the hardware, IMO.

4) What was the only thing Yamaha didn't make for drum corps before 2000? G bugles. They made marching percussion (though when I asked them about it in 1978 they weren't interested), Bb/F brass, and amplification equipment and electronic instruments and emulators. Can you see how this happened, and where it has gone since?

Is this somehow a bad thing? That we now have such amazing shows created and performed by staffs and members today? Using far better equipment that in the distant past, be it Yamaha or some other company.

6) I'm a drummer, but I still thought it was cool that our brass players used bugles with a piston and rotor, and that we were the first corps to use G/F p/r bugles. We were also the first to use 2V sopranos by special permission from DCI to field test them for American Heritage (King). (BTW, an interesting side note: The bells were stamped "Benge".)

I too am a drummer, who played one year on horn in 72. I never thought about those sorts of things as a member. Horns just were what they were. I don't EVER recall thinking..."gee, it is cool that I am playing this P/R Olds Ultratone baritone" in 1972. Don Angelica handed me a horn and I started to play it.

7) I challenge any modern corps to use the same set of brass (in any key) and percussion for 5 consecutive years. That's another lesson learned BITD. Respect for your equipment, and maintaining it.

Corps members absolutely respect and maintain their equipment today. But..why should corps keep a set of horns and/or percussion until it is useless as far as resale is concerned, when there are 25K+ HS bands and thousands of colleges that are a market for their slightly used stuff, so they can keep current and on top of the latest and greatest improvements in equipment?

8) The voicing of a trumpet is soprano in the brass choir. The tuba is the contrabass voice. Why not maintain the voice designation instead of trumpet and tuba? Shouldn't it still make sense to a bunch of music

majors?

What is the point? Though I do still hear the term "contra" used, more so than "soprano".

Just more fuel for the discussion.

Never a bad thing, Garry!

:smile:/>

[IllianaLancerContra]

FWIW, one reason that the US Marines D&BC have stayed with 2-valve G bugles is so hey can differentiate themselves from all the other military 'bands' when budget crunch time comes. This dates back to the COL Crawford era (no dummy him).

[Kansan]

My dues this year for band are somewhere from $2000-2500 not including spring trip... Part of the reason I didn't march this summer.

When did bands start charging students to march? When my daughter was in band there were some minor costs involved, maybe $150 dollars total for the year. We did have to pay for the trip to Orlando, FL, but that was the big trip the band takes every 3 years.

Contests per year? 1 Marching Band contest each weekend in October plus 1 Parade usually in September.

[Kansan]

I really think the new Bb/F brass that is being used today is coming closer to pumping out the volume G Bugles did except the Tubas. Why do corps have so many Tubas out there. It's common to see 10 to 18 Tubas on the field when G lines used 6 to 8.

I can't understand why Tubas can't be heard as well as the G Contra lines. I guess it could be the electronics playing over the top of them. I was talking to one of our Tuba players in the Guard Band and he told me if they are out of Tune with each other, they can actually cancel each other out sound wise. ????

[fsubone]

I can't understand why Tubas can't be heard as well as the G Contra lines. I guess it could be the electronics playing over the top of them. I was talking to one of our Tuba players in the Guard Band and he told me if they are out of Tune with each other, they can actually cancel each other out sound wise. ????

Not 100%, but close. The dissonant sound waves don't travel as far, and can't carry the volume. Which is why most corps do shows that fall in easy keys, because when they hit a big impact in Eb or Bb or F major, it can really ring because it's easy to get all of the notes to line up. Try and tune an F# or C# major chord, and things get a bit wobbly, which is why it is so cool when a corps can get a dissonant chord to come out loudly. When two players play the same note with the exact same intonation, the sound waves lock together and amplify, which is why it sounds so much louder and better when everyone lines up in tune. See Crown for more examples.

[CrunchyTenor]

Members moved around even pre-DCI. Lots of Garden State Circuit class 'B' members moved up to class 'A' corps like Blessed Sac, Garfield, St Lucy's, Hawthorne, Bayonne, etc...It was done all the time. One reason the town of Garfield did not support the Cadets all that much was that very few local kids actually marched...the Epochs GSC corps was started, as I understand it, because few of the Garfield Plebes at the time were moving up, as more experienced members came into the corps. When I tlhink about our 71 drumline...of the 4 timpani, 4 snares and 3 tri-toms, only one snare came up through the Plebes. The rest came from various GSC corps in North Jersey.

You're talking about a pretty small geographic region. There was a little movement among SoCal corps, too, but it was pretty rare for a kid from Florida to march in Seattle. (The whole 2-7 tenor line in 1972 was all ex-VK, though. They were an exception.)

Sure they could, if arrangements were in the same style and the staffs wanted the horn lines to produce the same sort of sound as produced back then. Those things have a lot more impact on volume than the hardware, IMO.

OK, if you say so. Have you seen an audiologist lately? :-)

Is this somehow a bad thing? That we now have such amazing shows created and performed by staffs and members today? Using far better equipment that in the distant past, be it Yamaha or some other company.

This was a quantum leap in many people's opinions. The plethora of threads, including this one, is proof of that. I've seen lots of amazing shows performed on G bugles and without amplification or electronics. If Yamaha wanted to be a major player in drum corps, why couldn't they build a better G bugle? Because lobbying for rule changes is cheaper.

I too am a drummer, who played one year on horn in 72. I never thought about those sorts of things as a member. Horns just were what they were. I don't EVER recall thinking..."gee, it is cool that I am playing this P/R Olds Ultratone baritone" in 1972. Don Angelica handed me a horn and I started to play it.

That's because you ARE a drummer. But think about it from a brass player's perspective. It was a challenge. But, yeah, little Johnny from the block didn't know the difference. It was what it was. I still thought it was cool. So, it's a IMO moment. :-)

Corps members absolutely respect and maintain their equipment today. But..why should corps keep a set of horns and/or percussion until it is useless as far as resale is concerned, when there are 25K+ HS bands and thousands of colleges that are a market for their slightly used stuff, so they can keep current and on top of the latest and greatest improvements in equipment?

I didn't say play it until it's useless. But let's talk again about Star's one set of 2V G bugles. I'm sure there were some replacements along the way. But I'll bet the transition to Bb killed more than one corps' budget, and the corps along with it. At least those without a sweetheart deal. I'd bet a lot of money that Our Lady of Perpetual Motion D&BC paid more that BD or Cadets did.

What is the point? Though I do still hear the term "contra" used, more so than "soprano".

(In my best Topol voice)

"Tradition!"

Seriously, I see it as another way to stomp out those pesky drum corps traditions and assimilating something unique into something generic. Call it bandification.

Never a bad thing, Garry!

:smile:/>/>

Never one to shy away from that, are we Mike?

:smile:/>/>

Garry in Vegas