Should DCI add a Front Ensemble judge?

[perc2100]

As a FMM of a pit, a uni-level battery player and instructor, occasional corps pit clinician, and former WGI regional ex judge for percussion, this tends to be something that has bugged me for a long time.

First, the bravado of judging by running around and following an ensemble to me is ridiculous. There are situations where you can, in fact, hear just that little more, but I've never had a problem hearing what I need to hear from the sideline or first few rows. Besides, the paying customers are there, so if you can't judge equally from that location, what's the point?

The tapes... Oh, the tapes. Useless. In almost every case, it's "oh that guy was just a little off". It's like saying the pitcher threw a ball, not a strike. Yep. Probably missed by an inch, and it'll never happen the same way again. It might be worthwhile, but it's effectively an audio tick sheet. Only in wrap-up afterwards do you hear reasonable comments, and those are rushed to get to the next group.

Should the pit get judged? They'll tell you right now that pit *is* judged. It's in GE Music. That's a joke. The only way a pit is getting critiqued by a judge that half knows what's going on is when the battery is kneeling behind a prop for a ballad. At that, the judge runs over, walks by, peers, and struggles to give a comment about matching heights, or how that chime player could be striking with a more level hammer, or some crap like that...oh, gotta go... because DRUMS.

So, a few conclusions.

Can percussion execution be judged effectively by one person?

-Yes, as long as they are at least on the sidelines. Better would be 10 rows up.

Would percussion be better served by two judges?

-Probably, but it isn't "cost effective" when it can be fudged like it is now.

Is there any interest in the judge community?

-I don't know, but the guys that marathon it on the field tend to wear it like a badge.

What would you do?

-The pre-July 4th rule should be year-long. I don't care where the judge is as long as they are out of the form.

What would be the benefit?

-Put percussion judges in the 10th row, and watch those amps become much less loud in 5... 4... 3...

What would be lost?

-The absolute focus on 10 points for half a section would be more players playing for 10 points.

Final word:

Corps have been putting kids in pits that don't have the talent or health to be on the field for years. Often you'll get 2-3 kids that either played bass and turned an ankle, or have donor parents, or just flat out try really hard but need to be hidden for whatever reason. You can do that. Do you really want to start calling out the kids playing shaker? No. However, you do want to have a judge have the opportunity to see and hear *IN CONTEXT* how batteries and pits line up. Don't even joke about how Music GE does that. The most you hear is "there's a little tearing up front" but most tapes don't go any further than that. Bonus points for the word "staging" on the tape. However, if you want to decide that the pit should be judged, you can't be running around behind it for 8-9 minutes. It doesn't require more judges; it requires giving up the macho crap of running, dodging, and making tapes no one gets anything out of. Get the judge off the field for everyone's safety, and for the opportunity to review all the members in percussion at all times. No excuses.

Great idea/observation! Put the percussion judge IN FRONT of the ensemble or low in the stands. I can buy into that as a percussionist

[N.E. Brigand]

What would be the benefit?

-Put percussion judges in the 10th row, and watch those amps become much less loud in 5... 4... 3...

Please let this happen.

[Jeff Ream]

Yes, and here is the bit$% of the situation:

if a front ensemble is perfectly in time with the drum major's hands, together as an ensemble, but not with the brass and percussion (who are disregarded the DM and rushing), the front ensemble is WRONG!

A great front ensemble instructor/arranger summed it up this way:

the front ensemble musicians need to listen back about 75% of the time, watch the drum major 20% of the time, and pray the other 5%

see i'd reverse watch and pray LOL

[Jeff Ream]

As a FMM of a pit, a uni-level battery player and instructor, occasional corps pit clinician, and former WGI regional ex judge for percussion, this tends to be something that has bugged me for a long time.

First, the bravado of judging by running around and following an ensemble to me is ridiculous. There are situations where you can, in fact, hear just that little more, but I've never had a problem hearing what I need to hear from the sideline or first few rows. Besides, the paying customers are there, so if you can't judge equally from that location, what's the point?

The tapes... Oh, the tapes. Useless. In almost every case, it's "oh that guy was just a little off". It's like saying the pitcher threw a ball, not a strike. Yep. Probably missed by an inch, and it'll never happen the same way again. It might be worthwhile, but it's effectively an audio tick sheet. Only in wrap-up afterwards do you hear reasonable comments, and those are rushed to get to the next group.

Should the pit get judged? They'll tell you right now that pit *is* judged. It's in GE Music. That's a joke. The only way a pit is getting critiqued by a judge that half knows what's going on is when the battery is kneeling behind a prop for a ballad. At that, the judge runs over, walks by, peers, and struggles to give a comment about matching heights, or how that chime player could be striking with a more level hammer, or some crap like that...oh, gotta go... because DRUMS.

So, a few conclusions.

Can percussion execution be judged effectively by one person?

-Yes, as long as they are at least on the sidelines. Better would be 10 rows up.

Would percussion be better served by two judges?

-Probably, but it isn't "cost effective" when it can be fudged like it is now.

Is there any interest in the judge community?

-I don't know, but the guys that marathon it on the field tend to wear it like a badge.

What would you do?

-The pre-July 4th rule should be year-long. I don't care where the judge is as long as they are out of the form.

What would be the benefit?

-Put percussion judges in the 10th row, and watch those amps become much less loud in 5... 4... 3...

What would be lost?

-The absolute focus on 10 points for half a section would be more players playing for 10 points.

Final word:

Corps have been putting kids in pits that don't have the talent or health to be on the field for years. Often you'll get 2-3 kids that either played bass and turned an ankle, or have donor parents, or just flat out try really hard but need to be hidden for whatever reason. You can do that. Do you really want to start calling out the kids playing shaker? No. However, you do want to have a judge have the opportunity to see and hear *IN CONTEXT* how batteries and pits line up. Don't even joke about how Music GE does that. The most you hear is "there's a little tearing up front" but most tapes don't go any further than that. Bonus points for the word "staging" on the tape. However, if you want to decide that the pit should be judged, you can't be running around behind it for 8-9 minutes. It doesn't require more judges; it requires giving up the macho crap of running, dodging, and making tapes no one gets anything out of. Get the judge off the field for everyone's safety, and for the opportunity to review all the members in percussion at all times. No excuses.

10 rows up, the battery is greatly covered up by the sound from the amps.

[N.E. Brigand]

10 rows up, the battery is greatly covered up by the sound from the amps.

I think that's why he wrote, "Put percussion judges in the 10th row, and watch those amps become much less loud in 5... 4... 3...".

[Jeff Ream]

I think that's why he wrote, "Put percussion judges in the 10th row, and watch those amps become much less loud in 5... 4... 3...".

no, because the amps are aimed upstairs for GE. You'll see no change

[N.E. Brigand]

10 rows up, the battery is greatly covered up by the sound from the amps.

I think that's why drumcat wrote, "Put percussion judges in the 10th row, and watch those amps become much less loud in 5... 4... 3...".

No, because the amps are aimed upstairs for GE. You'll see no change.

But didn't you just write that percussion judges sitting ten rows up would find the battery is covered up by the amps?

And wouldn't those judges reduce the corps' percussion scores accordingly?

And would the corps then turn down the amps to get the scores back up?

Or are you saying that the GE judges would reduce corps' GE scores because the amps weren't as loud?

If so, even a tug of war between GE and percussion judges would probably be better than the status quo.

[Jeff Ream]

But didn't you just write that percussion judges sitting ten rows up would find the battery is covered up by the amps?

And wouldn't those judges reduce the corps' percussion scores accordingly?

And would the corps then turn down the amps to get the scores back up?

Or are you saying that the GE judges would reduce corps' GE scores because the amps weren't as loud?

If so, even a tug of war between GE and percussion judges would probably be better than the status quo.

dude...haven't you listed to Rondo? it's all about GE. it's the only sheet not averaged with any other sheet, except for when they double the GE numbers. I mean, hell look at Crown's battery issues last year.....they only got so much better, but GE won the day despite the percussion issues.

If Ge couldn't hear the synth stuff, it would hurt more there than one caption added with two others and divided by 2.

Sadly, there is no win win scenario because with finals inside, as well as most of the major regionals, you WILL lose battery sound upstairs. sitting 25 rows up in indy on the 40 I had a hard time hearing bass drum stuff unless it was a unison. When i went up at semis to check it out, all I could hear up there was rim shots.Outside can be a difference, depending on venue, and better for the judge off the field scenario, but when the end game is a dome, it's a joke.

Now...do i think the field judge has to run all over hell's creation? No. i'e had enough experience judging on the field to know you can catch a lot there, get out some, but still get more of the pit by being less mobile. of course that has tended to #### some battery guys off, because i wasn't out there breaking down the second stroke of their diddle player by player, but I've found it to be a way to reward the entire ensemble, and only miss so much pit stuff, as opposed to running for my life.

but I'm few and far between, and I think far too many of the people clamoring for upstairs DO NOT take the accoustic issues created by being inside into consideration.

[MGCpimpOtimp]

Final word:

Corps have been putting kids in pits that don't have the talent or health to be on the field for years. Often you'll get 2-3 kids that either played bass and turned an ankle, or have donor parents, or just flat out try really hard but need to be hidden for whatever reason. You can do that. Do you really want to start calling out the kids playing shaker? No.

GREAT post, but I have a little bit of an issue with the quoted text. What you're describing is VERY common in High School Band, but is pretty rare in DCI, at least the top 12 (which is where my experience lies, both teaching and marching). When this happens, it is usually mid summer, and a marcher (usually an age out) suffers a season ending injury (Last I one I remember was the snare from Crown in 2010).

I can tell you that the talent auditioning for DCI front ensembles is higher than ever, and is not just a place for the snare cuts to go. It use to be that the drum set/rack player was always a drum line cut, now there are people auditioning SPECIFICALLY for these spots.

I say bring on the scrutiny from qualifying judges for the pit that the battery has had for years!

[drumcat]

GREAT post, but I have a little bit of an issue with the quoted text. What you're describing is VERY common in High School Band, but is pretty rare in DCI, at least the top 12 (which is where my experience lies, both teaching and marching). When this happens, it is usually mid summer, and a marcher (usually an age out) suffers a season ending injury (Last I one I remember was the snare from Crown in 2010).

I can tell you that the talent auditioning for DCI front ensembles is higher than ever, and is not just a place for the snare cuts to go. It use to be that the drum set/rack player was always a drum line cut, now there are people auditioning SPECIFICALLY for these spots.

I say bring on the scrutiny from qualifying judges for the pit that the battery has had for years!

No problem here. It's a sliding scale; I agree with you! It's very loosely correlated inversely to placement. That's not a slight on anyone.

Edited February 11, 2014 by drumcat