BRASSO Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) . I think the bigger "problem" (which is not really a problem per say), is that the general public/DCP absolutely does not understand the GE sheets, does not understand judging, does not know how judges are trained, etc. I agree. For example. I have no idea what judge(s) judged the electric rock guitar playing abilities of a Teal Sound performer in DCI field competition a couple of years back. Nor do I know the training that DCI judges have undergone in their schooling for all the nuances, intricacies, of the rock guitarist playing abilities with this instrument in field competition, nor what caption(s) the rock guitartist is being judged in, and nor who he or she is being compared with in the competition that event. Its all a mystery to me, and this is just one example. Who knows, maybe DCI judges arn't sure how to properly judge the fingering and all the other nuances with the playing of the electric rock guitar either. Absent any public information on any of this from DCI, why wouldn't it all be a complete mystery to everybody ? Do you know what judge(s) judge the rock guitar playing ?... and what precisely is being judged in the playing of this instrument ? and the judges training in this musical instrument ? I'm certainly open to becoming educated, as I freely admit it, much of it is a compete mystery to me now, and I've marched, taught, etc as well in the past like you have too. Edited January 31, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Also, I think fans look at shows, assess what they like, and then like to do arbitrary numbers and placements that often have no basis in logic. Seeing comments like, "I would have the placements: Cavaliers - 98.5; Scouts - 97.1; Crown - 97" etc, with maybe a very broad explanation on why they like/dislike shows. At last year's Massillon show, this fan was able to impress his friends, all new to drum corps, before the scores were announced, by predicting all the placements correctly and four of the eight scores within a half point. I don't mention that as any particular accomplishment on my part, since I think a lots of people who post to these forums, even though they're not judges, can call the overall scores fairly accurately. Actually I'm not sure if that argues for or against your point. My friends certainly could have offered opinions like the fans you cite, although they mainly were overwhelmed by the whole experience. But I know that when I watch an adjudicated sport at the Olympics about which I know no more than the average observer, like figure skating or diving, I get very frustrated by the inadequacy of the explanations of the supposedly expert commentators, particularly when those don't jibe with the judges' determinations. And NBC tries a lot harder than DCI! You mentioned the judges' tapes being included on early 2000s DVDs. I'd very much like to have that again. But I'd also like Rondinaro and company to try a little harder to help the average fan understand the contests that get wide exposure. A fan who thinks the judging is somehow rigged or that the judges are fools, and there are many such (as I left Allentown in 2010, I heard people complaining that Boston ought to have scored higher than other corps who used synthesizers--and they didn't believe me when I said that Boston had synths too!) is one who is less likely to support DCI in the future. And DCI can afford to let no one leave. Most of the cinema-casts include a very general explanation of the judging sheets near the beginning, but there is almost no attempt during the rest of the show to relate those guidelines to the shows actually performed. Why not some instant replay in which the commentators point out why this complex Blue Devils chord will score higher than that simple Scouts chord, or that the backstep marching in this Cadets show is more difficult than the follow-the-leader drill in that Vanguard show, and so forth (these are entirely hypothetical examples, of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) At last year's Massillon show, this fan was able to impress his friends, all new to drum corps, before the scores were announced, by predicting all the placements correctly and four of the eight scores within a half point. I don't mention that as any particular accomplishment on my part, since I think a lots of people who post to these forums, even though they're not judges, can call the overall scores fairly accurately. Actually I'm not sure if that argues for or against your point. My friends certainly could have offered opinions like the fans you cite, although they mainly were overwhelmed by the whole experience. But I know that when I watch an adjudicated sport at the Olympics about which I know no more than the average observer, like figure skating or diving, I get very frustrated by the inadequacy of the explanations of the supposedly expert commentators, particularly when those don't jibe with the judges' determinations. And NBC tries a lot harder than DCI! You mentioned the judges' tapes being included on early 2000s DVDs. I'd very much like to have that again. But I'd also like Rondinaro and company to try a little harder to help the average fan understand the contests that get wide exposure. A fan who thinks the judging is somehow rigged or that the judges are fools, and there are many such (as I left Allentown in 2010, I heard people complaining that Boston ought to have scored higher than other corps who used synthesizers--and they didn't believe me when I said that Boston had synths too!) is one who is less likely to support DCI in the future. And DCI can afford to let no one leave. Most of the cinema-casts include a very general explanation of the judging sheets near the beginning, but there is almost no attempt during the rest of the show to relate those guidelines to the shows actually performed. Why not some instant replay in which the commentators point out why this complex Blue Devils chord will score higher than that simple Scouts chord, or that the backstep marching in this Cadets show is more difficult than the follow-the-leader drill in that Vanguard show, and so forth (these are entirely hypothetical examples, of course). I sense that most fans now have resigned themselves to the fact that attempting to understand the scoring and placements are like trying to figure out how to nail jello to a wall with a hammer and nail. Some things are just too complicated and you wonder in the end why you wasted your time trying to hammer away at the stupid wall. So just put the hammer down and go watch the show and enjoy it for the pageantry and wonderful spectacle that it is............... Ok, so thats my sermon for the day. ( I'll pass the plate around now for any and all dollars in any amount that benevolence will allow .) Edited February 1, 2014 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 May not sound as different if the same player uses trombonium versus trombone except for the glisses. Not enough to warrant adding another instrument imho. Also, different quality instrument ($$$) may also affect sound; again the difference is not enough to warrant adding another instrument in our idiom. While the trombonium is certainly a little closer to the actual instrument than a baritone, it's still not the same. And that's an awfully big exception. The slide is a pretty integral part of the trombone sound. While I agree we don't need trombones marching (for practical reasons) I see no reason to ban anything from the pit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I see no reason to ban anything from the pit. Mosquitos and other airborne flying insects. I have to draw the line there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I sense that most fans now have resigned themselves to the fact that attempting to understand the scoring and placements are like trying to figure out how to nail jello to a wall with a hammer and nail. That's easy. Just before it becomes completely frozen, it will still be pliable and allow a nail to go through it. Next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 That's easy. Just before it becomes completely frozen, it will still be pliable and allow a nail to go through it. Next. " Next " then might be to consider living in a place when jello doesn't freeze to a wall, you know what I'm sayin', Ghost ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I don't know; I think in general people latch onto emotions and let that overrule logic. My wife is a HUGE football fan, and when she watches game and the team she's rooting for is struggling, she is always quick to try to find penalties that are not being called. Sometimes I'll point out stuff like, "you're allowed to make contact within the first five yards so that's 100% legal" and she doesn't want to hear that: she just knows the team she likes is not doing well and that upsets her. Judging is one of those things that's complicated, in a sense. All of us make judgement calls about what he like/don't like, what we prefer/don't want to see. Judging, however, is about having sound logic & reasoning for those opinions as they relate to sheets. I think that is what people tend to forget/ignore/misunderstand. I have judged shows that I personally did not like, but the groups played extremely well, and hit many factors of the sheets. Sometimes a group I really like doesn't hit points on the sheets as well as other groups. But in the end EVERYTHING has to relate to the sheets, and I think not enough people get that. As for DCI failing to educate, the sheets are online & easy to access. Recaps for every show go up online quickly for people to analyze. Of course, that's only part of it, but I think DCI does what it can do and if fans prefer to naively analyze with mostly emotion no one can change that. Definitely not: judges are unequivocally part of the audience: they have maybe the best seats in the crowd, and see shows from the same vantage point as everyone else (for the most part). They're just more educated about their sheets, and approaching the shows as evaluators (as most of us do on a different level, maybe). actually if you have no idea where to look, the sheets arent that easy to find. this is a great topic to for DCI to keep doing Dan Potter pieces on like they did for field sheets last year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywhopper Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I'm ambivalent on the any-brass proposal. I don't really see any benefit to the rule change. Trombone players would have less of an adjustment to make to join a corps? Sousaphones are easier to carry? Obviously there are a couple of sounds trombones can make that are out of reach for other instruments. And in a world of amped brass, French horns could be used for their very unique tone color for solos or small groups. But... I don't like amped brass, so that one isn't a point in favor for me. It would make corps look more like bands, which ... I also don't see as a benefit. I think DCI's distinctiveness in the world of the marching arts is one of the things that makes it interesting and I'd expect that difference also makes it more attractive to the kids who participate. As for the EE caption, I liked that proposal back when it was first made, and I think it's worth trying. The much heralded scoring system revamp really only amounted to some name changes (and not in ways that made sense). I think the Effect captions could use some stirring up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old skool drmmr Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 DCI needs Sousaphones! What a historic instrument in the heritage of marching music, created by the man himself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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