Should judging be flat?

[BRASSO]

but I think DCI taking a MAMMOTH step backward, shunning innovation for entertainment and essentially ignoring criteria would be awful.

The assumption that a creative and innovative show automatically sacrifices an appeal to audiences in the entertainment arena is not shared by me. Not only in Drum Corps, but in all facets of the Performing Arts, a creative, fresh and new show can be as equally entertaining, or sometimes even more so, with the masses a much as the traditional and the easily recognizable. DCI has also had years where the fan favorite for that year also was the favorite with the judges. So it certainly is not out of the question at all that a Corps can't impress 12 DCI judges and win AND be the single most or one of the most entertaining Corps shows among the thousands from coast to coast. To be sure, its a daunting task to appeal equally to both fans and DCI judges alike, but it HAS been done before.

[Jeff Ream]

this is true...to some degree.....There are many visual tapes that constantly talk about how music is interp. ...especially relating visual to percussion,,, accents, highs, lows, etc etc

but youre right as far as the music people

GE i'll give you. field and ensemble, no.

[BRASSO]

People like to continue to spread the seeming fallacy that visual gets more consideration, but looking at the DCI sheets visual has exactly 50% of the overall numbers which music getting the other 50%. Yes, because of simultaneous demand there is a bit of bleeding from the some of the vis sheets to the music but those are still being taken into consideration TOGETHER EQUALLY!

Your theory of equal distribution of the captions only holds if there was an equal distribution of marcher sections on the field. But with brass having between 68- 80 brass being judged, and 35 or so in guard being judged, its clear that a single Guard person has more weight on the field than say a trumpet player does. Plus, we ask that trumpet player to do lots and lots of visuals along with that guard marcher. But we do not ask that Guard marcher to play the trumpet. So of course you are incorrect that the Visuals and Guard do not play more of a role in the current sheets than the brass and the percussion. I used an example above of a DCI Corps that won a DCI Title a few years back where the entire percussion section ( minus the pit ) did not play nor move a muscle for 25% of the timed competition. I'd be more than happy to set aside my belief that Guard and Visual predominate on the current sheets if you can point out to us any Corps the last 2 decades that has won a DCI Title with the GUARD not moving a muscle for a full quarter of of their DCI winning show with the Judges. The floor is yours.

Edited February 24, 2014 by BRASSO

[Jeff Ream]

Jeff nails it. And it's not just in DCI. In the related activities and sanctions, where simultaneous demand is a factor, music judges are a lot more consistent about factoring in how visual content impacts music demand and performance levels. The sheets are written balanced between vis and music. It's an adjudication issue, not a paper issue. Then again, it's only an issue if the member corps feel like it's an issue. Haven't seen much change on this front, so maybe they are good with the current training and application of visual adjudication.

With that in mind, I would like to better understand what you mean by "flat." Are you suggesting removal of verbiage related to simultaneous demand, environmental challenges and layered responsibilities? If not, then what?

I see it as more of an issue that that to be honest.

I see judges afraid to put the achievement number higher than the content number. and, IMO, in several cases the last few years, it's been warranted.

Honestly, the best fix is to weight each box ala WGI in the A Class guard world, or percussion in the music caption. For the A Class, content is multiplied by .7, performance/achievement is multipled by 1.3. The judges still uses 0-100 to determine their numbers, and the multipliers create the spreads. it takes some of the sting away from those judges that just tenth everyone from each other.

[perc2100]

It is not hard at all to see the reason judging is allowed to be weighted in one direction. Just ask Guardling and you will discover that, and I quote, "It is ALL about the visual". Somewhere down the line a collection of like-minded designers have maneuvered the activity into such a philosophy. Music is now considered as pretty much nothing more than ‘incidental enhancement’ of the most important aspect which is a visual channel of primary communication; thus music in the activity today is not supposed to be considered as a ‘communicative dialogue’ with the audience but rather considered as ‘background intensification’ of the primary goal of visual communication, visual story-telling, and visual artistry. My guess, and this is just a guess, is that it comes from the fusion of two genera: First is the Winter Guard genre where recorded music takes a way, way, way back seat to the visual artistry presented on the floor; and Second the concert productions, such as Madonna, where the visual presentations are so elaborate it is considered ok for the artist to lip-sync thus devaluing the musical performance in order to elevate the visual creativity.

Again, I think this is somewhat of a fallacy. Yes, this is a medium that combines audio AND visual, and yes music judges are trained to recognize simultaneous demand. But again, music = 50% and visual = 50% of the sheets. I think the 'fusion' of the two demands, and visual becoming more of a demand that "BITD," just had to do with evolution of the activity. Both music and visual demand has picked up for the most part, definitely top-bottom within the ranks.

[Jeff Ream]

Your theory of equal distribution of the captions only holds if there was an equal distribution of marcher sections on the field. But with brass having between 68- 80 brass being judged, and 35 or so in guard being judged, its clear that a single Guard person has more weight on the field than say a trumpet player does. Plus, we ask that trumpet player to do lots and lots of visuals along with that guard marcher. But we do not ask that Guard marcher to play the trumpet. So of course you are incorrect that the Visuals and Guard do not play more of a role in the current sheets than the brass and the percussion. I used an example above of a DCI Corps that won a DCI Title a few years back where the entire percussion section ( minus the pit ) did not play nor move a muscle for 25% of the timed competition. I'd be more than happy to set aside my belief that Guard and Visual predominate on the current sheets if you can point out to us any Corps the last 2 decades that has won a DCI Title with the GUARD not moving a muscle for 25% of their DCI winning show with the Judges. The floor is yours.

ok...but....did the sporanos play 70% of the time? You can't have all voices playing at all times. This same show you're #####ing about, also had a lengthy drum break in which no brass played. So while yes they moved, should not their brass scores be lower? You can't have it all one way, and you show me a show where every voice plays at all times, i'll show you an over written pile of ####.

[Jeff Ream]

Again, I think this is somewhat of a fallacy. Yes, this is a medium that combines audio AND visual, and yes music judges are trained to recognize simultaneous demand. But again, music = 50% and visual = 50% of the sheets. I think the 'fusion' of the two demands, and visual becoming more of a demand that "BITD," just had to do with evolution of the activity. Both music and visual demand has picked up for the most part, definitely top-bottom within the ranks.

on paper yes it's 50%. In terms of application and commentary, it IS skewed at least 60-40 towards visual. You've had DCI staff members say so in these forums

[perc2100]

Your theory of equal distribution of the captions only holds if there was an equal distribution of marcher sections on the field. But with brass having between 68- 80 brass being judged, and 35 or so in guard being judged, its clear that a single Guard person has more weight on the field than say a trumpet player does. Plus, we ask that trumpet player to do lots and lots of visuals along with that guard marcher. But we do not ask that Guard marcher to play the trumpet. So of course you are incorrect that the Visuals and Guard do not play more of a role in the current sheets than the brass and the percussion. I used an example above of a DCI Corps that won a DCI Title a few years back where the entire percussion section ( minus the pit ) did not play nor move a muscle for 25% of the timed competition. I'd be more than happy to set aside my belief that Guard and Visual predominate on the current sheets if you can point out to us any Corps the last 2 decades that has won a DCI Title with the GUARD not moving a muscle for 25% of their DCI winning show with the Judges. The floor is yours.

That's silly, and obviously that's never happened and I'm not sure I understand why you keep bringing that up: as if it is ANY section's best interest to not perform for 25% of a program. Can you show me where there is a brass line or FULL percussion section that doesn't play for a full quarter of the program that won DCI?

[BRASSO]

Again, I think this is somewhat of a fallacy. Yes, this is a medium that combines audio AND visual, and yes music judges are trained to recognize simultaneous demand. But again, music = 50% and visual = 50% of the sheets. I think the 'fusion' of the two demands, and visual becoming more of a demand that "BITD," just had to do with evolution of the activity. Both music and visual demand has picked up for the most part, definitely top-bottom within the ranks.

I'll try one more time my question to perhaps help you ( hopefully anyway ) better understand :.... name us 1 Corps the last 25 years that has won a DCI Title with the GUARD not moving a muscle for a quarter of the show ?

Edited February 24, 2014 by BRASSO

[Stu]

Again, I think this is somewhat of a fallacy. Yes, this is a medium that combines audio AND visual, and yes music judges are trained to recognize simultaneous demand. But again, music = 50% and visual = 50% of the sheets. I think the 'fusion' of the two demands, and visual becoming more of a demand that "BITD," just had to do with evolution of the activity. Both music and visual demand has picked up for the most part, definitely top-bottom within the ranks.

This is not a fallacy but what has actually happened within the 'perception is reality' mindset. The sheets may be in reality structured 50/50, but the philosophy in interpreting the GE sheets, the belief structure, the perception of the sheets is just like Guardling has pointed out time, and time, and time again, “It is ALL about the Visual'. There is a very deep GE concern in this modern age that the music enhances the visual in both the Music GE and Visual GE judging, but not much concern, if any at all, is given to the visual enhancing the music. Thus what has happened with this interpretation, this perception, this philosophy is that the music in DCI is now being considered merely a background supportive role to the primary aspects of visual communication. A DCI show concept designer, who I will not name out of respect, recently told me that we should equate this to the most stimulating and memorable moments in various movies; you remember the scene, you remember the story, you remember the dramatic effect, and the music was utilized to enhance those aspects; however, if the music did its job correctly you do not actually remember the music itself but the impact it had on the visual.