Should judging be flat?

[corpsband]

EDIT:

I'll see your and raise you! (and well done -- sometimes you just have to stop feeding them)

Edited March 4, 2014 by corpsband

[GUARDLING]

I'll see your and raise you! (and well done -- sometimes you just have to stop feeding them)

wow!!!!!!!!..........................................YOU WIN......and youre right!!!!!!

[Stu]

I realize it's the difficult off-season, and all, but I'm beginning to think I'd pay to see a DCP Posters cage-match!

. . . . .

Ehhhh … at least one of the opponents would 'visually perceive a reality' where there would be a hole in the cage and then fly away within the 'perceived reality' of having wings on their back. So, in this world of perception 'is' reality, the cage fight would not happen; except in your own perception of reality in which case you could create your own reality apart from ours. Come to think of it, the visual image of that takes precedent over all else; at least in the perception is reality sense, that is.

[Jeff Ream]

No beef there, but would it fundamentally change things for the better? Everyone notches it down to be cleaner, but it might not alter whether a show is more enjoyable to watch or not. I would think any creative staff can generate boring, insipid, or pretentious no matter how the rules are cut. Or, generate more excitement and inspire.

The next question- would it change who's on top? I somehow doubt that- though it might make more of the 4-6 bracket more comparable and tighter to those corps.

sorry for the delay in replying...been sick as hell the last few days.

I do think it could make it better. how many times do we see corps trying stupid stuff that'll never get clean, then crying because they try stupid stuff that never gets clean?

Plus....late in the season, the judges love to play safe...book a tenth or so over performance up the ladder. Few with the balls to actually say someone is out performing their book...and hey so what oif they are! let them be rewarded! It seems that we see on here time and time again technical excellence is such a driving factor why people go to shows...then reward that technical excellence over those who lather a show with demand hoping they can get it clean enough the book number pulls hem up a notch.

[Jeff Ream]

bad visuals or visuals just for the sake up should NOT receive credit....if it doesnt make sense to music or theme or the moment in a show,then NO credit should be given.........................Now wheather 2 people can agree if it belongs in a given moment or not can be a huge debate..................judges SHOULD be able to know the difference and reward ONLY when it's achieved and makes sense to the program

except as a judge, if you dont give credit for said visual, even if it makes no sense, you still get #####ed at because you said it doesnt make sense.

it's a no win

[Jeff Ream]

No, that's not what I said. Go back and read it again (and, BTW, spare me the negative attacks even if you do qualify them; you and I both know what you're saying and you don't know me or my history or experience well enough to make such statements). What I said was that there are excellent and legit examples of movement in the drum lines of several past shows that actually add, visually, to the percussion performance. I cited several examples from the litany that can be found in history, and none of them were of the squat-pivot-squat-turn style that seems so prevalent today in meeting the SD requirement.

Is it impressive that a drum line can squat and parry while playing tough rhythms? Rarely, IMO, because it's gratuitous movement to satisfy the sheets. The lick they're playing may be fabulous but the body movement is meh and adds little to the "demand" of the lick. Again, 2000 Cadets tenor line had plenty of SD even PRIOR to their solo on the sideline, but that extra movement (rotating up the drums while spinning down to the bottom) was impressive not because of itself, but because it added so well to the book that was being played. Similar Cadets 2011 (among many others who have done the same): marching across the field with a large separation between the two halves of the line, marching an odd, stagger-step meter at a high tempo, AND playing alternating sixteenth fours that sounded like they were standing static in a straight line. Now THAT'S SD, IMO. (BD is excellent at alternating note blocks as well - I'm not favoring Cadets particularly).

If you're talking about the 3:00 mark in '07 BD's show, when the drumline is doing LOTS of body movement, pay attention to the rest of the corps - they were all doing the same body movements and, visually, it was VERY cool because of they symmetry across the whole mass of blue uniforms. That's not gratuitous SD for movement sake alone, which is what I object to. If you're describing another point in the show, please point it out with a time stamp or something I can identify.

if you kep saying squat and parry, you better add in thrust as well as the Daffy Duck video

[GUARDLING]

except as a judge, if you dont give credit for said visual, even if it makes no sense, you still get #####ed at because you said it doesnt make sense.

it's a no win

thats not ture..you do not give credit for attempt nor give it when not fitting.....ive seen people called out all the time for it....now if one agrees or not is another story....at least its been my experience

Edited March 5, 2014 by GUARDLING

[perc2100]

Agreed. Complete agreement. Just like figure skating or gymnastics. They are so good, there's *never* any disagreement.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but it's all fact what you put out there, and yet few people are satisfied. Not because the judges are doing something "wrong" - it's because most people don't feel closely aligned with the judging criteria. Restated another way, most of the ticket-buying public has an idea of what they believe they are seeing and how things should be holistically judged, and most of that public accepts some differences with more learned judges. However, if the "goalposts" are constantly in the "wrong" place for those paying to see the show, they will be unhappy.

Nothing new, and nothing that can't be suffered through. Hell, no one understands how gymnastics are *really* scored. They just know they want to see the highest numbers go to the athletes that seem most proficient. That's really what sport is, right? Judged sports anyhow.

My overarching point is that no one is going to suddenly be happy with judging. Rather, aligning outcomes with paid-viewers expectations is good business. That's all.

Ha; that's an understatement!

I still think a simpleish way to solve at last some of the paid-viewer frustrations over judging would be the fan-vote: if DCI would implement a separate fan vote independent of judge scores, the fans might feel more vested. People would still disagree, there might be regional bias, etc. but it would be something: one aspect of rewarding corps that fans could have ownership of

* edit * I also have very little idea how Olympic stuff is scored (figure skating, gymnastics, etc) so if I ever watch that stuff it's more as a passive viewer and not one invested in rooting for a specific team.

Edited March 5, 2014 by perc2100

[perc2100]

No, that's not what I said. Go back and read it again (and, BTW, spare me the negative attacks even if you do qualify them; you and I both know what you're saying and you don't know me or my history or experience well enough to make such statements). What I said was that there are excellent and legit examples of movement in the drum lines of several past shows that actually add, visually, to the percussion performance. I cited several examples from the litany that can be found in history, and none of them were of the squat-pivot-squat-turn style that seems so prevalent today in meeting the SD requirement.

Is it impressive that a drum line can squat and parry while playing tough rhythms? Rarely, IMO, because it's gratuitous movement to satisfy the sheets. The lick they're playing may be fabulous but the body movement is meh and adds little to the "demand" of the lick. Again, 2000 Cadets tenor line had plenty of SD even PRIOR to their solo on the sideline, but that extra movement (rotating up the drums while spinning down to the bottom) was impressive not because of itself, but because it added so well to the book that was being played. Similar Cadets 2011 (among many others who have done the same): marching across the field with a large separation between the two halves of the line, marching an odd, stagger-step meter at a high tempo, AND playing alternating sixteenth fours that sounded like they were standing static in a straight line. Now THAT'S SD, IMO. (BD is excellent at alternating note blocks as well - I'm not favoring Cadets particularly).

If you're talking about the 3:00 mark in '07 BD's show, when the drumline is doing LOTS of body movement, pay attention to the rest of the corps - they were all doing the same body movements and, visually, it was VERY cool because of they symmetry across the whole mass of blue uniforms. That's not gratuitous SD for movement sake alone, which is what I object to. If you're describing another point in the show, please point it out with a time stamp or something I can identify.

1) as you say above,

I cited several examples from the litany that can be found in history, and none of them were of the squat-pivot-squat-turn style that seems so prevalent today in meeting the SD requirement.

I was specifically commenting on your assessment of "squat, pivot, blahblahblah." If you took offense to my assessment that you don't really understand the sheets or intent of those types of musical/visual phrases as you write them off in a very broad manner, then I guess that's on you: not meant as an insult, just meant as my observations of what you say.

Heck, you say things like

(body movement)adds little to the "demand" of the lick.

that is just obviously a lack of understanding of the nature of those types of phrases. Disagree with the general effect of those phrases, but saying it doesn't add to the demand is silly. What a drum line can play stationary becomes more difficult when in movement: it's simple physics. The brain has to process even more levels of concentration in order to achieve the additional movement, the correct choreography counts, etc. while playing perfectly in time w/correct heights & approach. All with a fairly large group. A line standing still only has to worry about the playing aspect. You honestly don't understand how adding ANY visual motion adds difficulty to playing? You don't get how adding choreography is more difficult than just marching?

2) the fact that you keep generalizing for audience members gets old. Just you YOU DON'T LIKE IT and leave it at that. I know you've written IMO, but you do it while also speaking for fans who in your mind you feel would appreciate more music and less visual. You speak even for MM's, speculating they might agree with you. It greatly diminishes any discourse whenever you generalize and speak for masses. I mentioned Blue Devils 2007 as a drum line who does the "squat, pivot, whatever" while playing a solo. You can clearly hear on multiple different videos of separate performances that the audience is into it.

3) like ALL aspects of drum corps design, some stuff is effective, and some is not. Not all body movement is effective, but at the same time some of it is amazing. A corps might get some credit doing choreography during an exposed, difficult battery feature: they will get more credit if the phrase is effective. I agree that sometimes that stuff seems mundane, and feels like the choreography is done because a designer is going over a design checklist of "must have's." I've never been a fan of the horn line post of horn in carriage position on the side with a arm out-stretched in front: always has looked like a cheesy GQ pose. But even that is effective sometimes. Just like the "squat, pivot, whatevs" stuff during a battery feature can also be effective.

[perc2100]

My own personal opinion?

OK.

Yep. When you say stuff like garfield, on 03 Mar 2014 - 1:44 PM, said:

why are the designers scoring vis as high or higher priority as music when the vast majority of fans think otherwise?

that is you projecting your opinion on the "vast majority of fans." You have NO CLUE what the vast majority of fans think (as I do not either). I have quoted a DCP poll that says the majority of those who responded felt Music AND Visual were 'most important.' DCP polls don't carry much weight anywhere, but that is the ONLY evidence I've seen while you have shown nothing but relate anecdotal evidence and gross over-generalizations.