All animals are equal (but some are more equal than others)

[fsubone]

My memory is hazy, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but in 2000 (the first year of any-key brass), weren't the Blue Devils and Cadets the only two corps in the top 12 to use them?

yes they were. Just the two. It spread the next year with Cavaliers and a couple others jumping over. I think SCV was 2002, and Phantom was 2003 with Madison. Last one to switch was Pio in 2007.

[HornTeacher]

Thanks for the concern (and I do mean that). I am safe because I completely despise the organization, do not advocate their position, never engaged in any sort of behavior, and if it were up to me I would place all of their members in a cold dark prison to rot. As to my postings, any reasonable person reading them would easily determine I was using that group's name to show the 'We have to accept Perception is Reality' folks that they are out to lunch. That in their philosophy, for them to live by their 'perception is reality' standard they, not me, not you, but they are placed in a rather horrible philosophical conundrum if they reject the 'perceptions' of others no matter the revulsion. Sorry if that created a startle.

OK Stu, I'll bite.

You and I have gone back and forth on this whole "perception is reality" bit. You especially seemed to flare when I came out and stated it as my belief. However, I don't think you internalized my entire statement, that being: "Perception IS Reality...but for THAT person, and THAT person only." There are currently approximately 7.22 billion people currently living on earth, and I would submit that there will be 7.22 billions "realities." You are confusing "reality" with "universal truth." To use the example which you cited, of course gorging on arsenic-laced mushrooms will lead to one's death. No argument from me. THAT would be an example of a "universal truth" (although out of 7.22 billion people, there is always the chance that ONE person out of that number might possess some form of biological or metabolic anomaly which renders them immune to arsenic). However, that would be so rare that the general "universal truth" would still hold.

Now, let me give you an example on which I base my assertion of "Perception is Reality." Let us assume for a moment that you and I are good friends -- maybe former collegiate classmates. We've stayed in touch over the years. You live in Florida (this is an EXAMPLE only --NOT fact), and I live in central Vermont. You call me one day, and ask "How's the weather?" I look out my window and reply "It's snowing like hxxx." You look our your window in Palm Beach and say "No, it's not." My reality in central Vermont is that it is currently snowing. Your reality in Florida is that it is sunny and 80 degrees -- hence, not snowing. Guess what? We're BOTH right. And our realities are both correct. However, neither of our realities can obviously be considered to be a "universal truth."

Did it ever occur to you that we may both very well be arguing the same viewpoint? The only difference is that your are transposing "reality" as being "universal truth." I am not, and never will. However, I DO welcome the debate. Sure as heck is better than sitting and watching the snow fly out my window.

[Stu]

OK Stu, I'll bite.

You and I have gone back and forth on this whole "perception is reality" bit. You especially seemed to flare when I came out and stated it as my belief. However, I don't think you internalized my entire statement, that being: "Perception IS Reality...but for THAT person, and THAT person only." There are currently approximately 7.22 billion people currently living on earth, and I would submit that there will be 7.22 billions "realities." You are confusing "reality" with "universal truth." To use the example which you cited, of course gorging on arsenic-laced mushrooms will lead to one's death. No argument from me. THAT would be an example of a "universal truth" (although out of 7.22 billion people, there is always the chance that ONE person out of that number might possess some form of biological or metabolic anomaly which renders them immune to arsenic). However, that would be so rare that the general "universal truth" would still hold.

Now, let me give you an example on which I base my assertion of "Perception is Reality." Let us assume for a moment that you and I are good friends -- maybe former collegiate classmates. We've stayed in touch over the years. You live in Florida (this is an EXAMPLE only --NOT fact), and I live in central Vermont. You call me one day, and ask "How's the weather?" I look out my window and reply "It's snowing like hxxx." You look our your window in Palm Beach and say "No, it's not." My reality in central Vermont is that it is currently snowing. Your reality in Florida is that it is sunny and 80 degrees -- hence, not snowing. Guess what? We're BOTH right. And our realities are both correct. However, neither of our realities can obviously be considered to be a "universal truth."

Did it ever occur to you that we may both very well be arguing the same viewpoint? The only difference is that your are transposing "reality" as being "universal truth." I am not, and never will. However, I DO welcome the debate. Sure as heck is better than sitting and watching the snow fly out my window.

'Universal Truth' is a non-existent construct in the philosophical world of ‘perception is reality’, so it is futile to even discuss that aspect with a ‘perception is reality’ advocate. And within your examples you are misrepresenting, and misusing, the word 'perception'. The fact that it is snowing in Vermont and it is hot and sunny in Florida has nothing to do with the way we ‘perceive’ those facts. ‘Perception’ is the way we translate those facts in our individual brains which affects our behavior, belief structure, and thought patterns. If I, in Florida, ‘perceive’ that it is snowing and cold outside it will affect my behavior, it will influence my believe structure, it will affect my thought patterns, but it will not change the fact that in reality it is actually hot and sunny in Florida. However, that contention of factual reality apart from perception (what we call truth, universal truth) is where the ‘perception is reality’ advocates balk. The advocates of the philosophy of ‘perception is reality’ would contend that since perception does affect behavior, belief structure, and thought patterns, and that perception is individually unique, perception therefore is absolutely correct to each individual and thus there is no truth or universal truth outside that perception. Those who truly believe in the philosophy also believe that while you can make right/wrong and good/bad judgments concerning yourself based on your own perceptions, the way you perceive reality is only applicable to you; and thus to them you cannot and should not project your perception as being correct onto the ‘perceived reality’ of others.

[HornTeacher]

'Universal Truth' is a non-existent construct in the philosophical world of ‘perception is reality’, so it is futile to even discuss that aspect with a ‘perception is reality’ advocate. And within your examples you are misrepresenting, and misusing, the word 'perception'. The fact that it is snowing in Vermont and it is hot and sunny in Florida has nothing to do with the way we ‘perceive’ those facts. ‘Perception’ is the way we translate those facts in our individual brains which affects our behavior, belief structure, and thought patterns. If I, in Florida, ‘perceive’ that it is snowing and cold outside it will affect my behavior, it will influence my believe structure, it will affect my thought patterns, but it will not change the fact that in reality it is actually hot and sunny in Florida. However, that contention of factual reality apart from perception (what we call truth, universal truth) is where the ‘perception is reality’ advocates balk. The advocates of the philosophy of ‘perception is reality’ would contend that since perception does affect behavior, belief structure, and thought patterns, and that perception is individually unique, perception therefore is absolutely correct to each individual and thus there is no truth or universal truth outside that perception. Those who truly believe in the philosophy also believe that while you can make right/wrong and good/bad judgments concerning yourself based on your own perceptions, the way you perceive reality is only applicable to you; and thus to them you cannot and should not project your perception as being correct onto the ‘perceived reality’ of others.

Ahhh...finally something in which we both believe. And what I've been saying all along. I told you we were arguing the same point. Thank you for your concurrence. And thank you for caring to take the time to write all that you have above. I mean that most sincerely.

[GUARDLING]

Ahhh...finally something in which we both believe. And what I've been saying all along. I told you we were arguing the same point. Thank you for your concurrence. And thank you for caring to take the time to write all that you have above. I mean that most sincerely.

Problem with some though is they dont believe in anyone elses reality, perception and mostly opinions.other than their own...some fight I think just for the sake of fighting.................even if it happens to be many.opinions................but thats ok ( and Im NOT getting into it )...but thats also a 2 way street

Edited March 8, 2014 by GUARDLING

[Stu]

Ahhh...finally something in which we both believe. And what I've been saying all along. I told you we were arguing the same point. Thank you for your concurrence. And thank you for caring to take the time to write all that you have above. I mean that most sincerely.

I believe that there 'is' universal truth, that perception is 'not' reality, and that we can, and should, project that universal truth onto holding people who have erroneous perceptions (like those in the organization Jeff and I find to be horrible) accountable for their actions. The modern philosophy of ‘Perception is Reality’, which I whole heartily disagree with, can be found in the fusion of Nihilism, which states that that life is without any universal objective meaning or purpose, and Existentialism, where one can create his or her own subjective meaning or purpose. The advocates of ‘Perception is Reality’ thus follow the constructs presented by Existential Nihilism philosophers such as Friedrich Nietzsche, John-Paul Sartre, and Albert Camus as well as others. And more to the point of DCI, The Blue Devils design staff have recently hinted at the influence this philosophical construct has had on our modern culture with their shows ‘Constantly Risking Absurdity’ and “Cabaret Voltaire’. That is part of why I despise those show designs because I despise both Existential Nihilism and Perception is Reality.

[Stu]

Problem with stu though is he doesnt believe in anyone elses reality, perception and mostly opinions..................even if it happens to be many.................but thats ok ( and Im NOT getting into it with him )...but thats also a 2 way street

I believe that DCI can be whatever the rules committee makes it out to be; I may disagree with some aspects, but DCI is not a universal truth. On the other hand, I do believe in universal truths which need to hold some people’s perceptions as accountable (ie the members of the horrible organization I previously mentioned). Their perceptions I can, and should, hold accountable to an absolute truth.

[seen-it-all]

And I believe that drum corps is not a sport. I'm glad we finally got that settled.

[GUARDLING]

I believe that DCI can be whatever the rules committee makes it out to be; I may disagree with some aspects, but DCI is not a universal truth. On the other hand, I do believe in universal truths which need to hold some people’s perceptions as accountable (ie the members of the horrible organization I previously mentioned). Their perceptions I can, and should, hold accountable to an absolute truth.

you caught it before I made edits..............look back please...i didnt want it directed to you ...personally

[HockeyDad]

And I believe that drum corps is not a sport. I'm glad we finally got that settled.

You don't need to believe that. It's a universal truth.