Rules Congress

[Kamarag]

Fair enough. My concern is the use of "evolved" or "evolution" as an excuse to say that any given change can't be discussed, which I've seen far too often in these discussion: your dislike for this change matters less than my like for this change because it represents the natural evolution of drum corps.

...and that's a very fair point. The problem is, there's little discussion, particularly by the "that ain't drum corps!" crowd. The pro-evolution folks (of which I am admittedly one) provide support for their argument, while those opposed generally resort to slippery slope or ad hominem flights of logical fallacy. The only way to fight someone yelling about taking their ball and going home is to simply let them do so.

I've yet to see one single poster that's against change in drum corps present a logical argument supporting their view. I'd love to see one, to be honest.

[N.E. Brigand]

as I stated before...kids want what they have EVERYWHERE ELSE.

That's not an answer to my question. Most kids don't "have" electronics in marching band. Just a couple of synth players and maybe an electric bassist and guitarist do. The rest of them: what do they have in marching band that they don't have in DCA?

[GUARDLING]

To the last item, you might as well ask why all musical ensembles aren't the same. Why doesn't the Canadian Brass make a synth a regular part of their ensemble? Why doesn't the Cleveland Orchestra always include a rock band? Why don't all rap songs include acoustic instrumental breaks, for that matter?

But what I really want is specifics about those effects without which corps are "hamstrung". Sure, you occasionally get an effect like Bluecoats pitch bend. So fine, allow electronics. But don't require them. No judge should be telling a corps, "I'd have given you a higher score, if only you were using a synthesizer." Because the trend is that what is supposed to an option becomes an expectation, even though most of the time it does nothing. I watched about 200 marching band performances this fall. More than 80% of those groups used synthesizers. Of that number, easily 90%, in my opinion, were not not improved by their synthesizers, or were even weaker for their use. Tarpon Springs, this year's BoA champion, who were indeed very good (although I preferred Broken Arrow) would have been even more impressive if they used a live student narrator than a prerecorded adult (it's really strange that BoA has a rule preventing adults from being on the field during the show but doesn't object to using an adult's voice). So all praise to Cadets for doing the right thing in 2014, in that regard (which didn't stop most of the 15 people I took to their first drum corps show this year from finding the whole idea of Cadets narration, live or not, to be pretty cheesy). And lots of bands use synthesizer to try and fill in parts where their winds, to put it bluntly, are weak. Or to cover transitions. But look: f the winds and battery don't have to play for those six bars, they can insert a dance move! And that way they have less music to memorize or play well.

Because at bottom, there must be some definition to drum corps. There are things that are drum corps and things that aren't drum corps, and everyone on these forums would agree that some things aren't drum corps. This change by itself, no more than in DCI, will not push corps irrevocably past the point where everyone would feel they aren't really corps anymore. What I'm really after is just getting people to think about the effects these changes have. If it means the brass are playing less, is that a bad thing or not?

I hear ya but as far as the defination of drum corps, who actually decides this. I remember quite vividly back in the 70s a whole movement and t shirts stating that it wasn't drum corps back in the 70s anymore

[N.E. Brigand]

Sorry. 41 years ago I had no idea what drum corps was or that I would ever be a part of it. So that problem, as you say it, is not a problem to me.

That is exactly how kids feel about Bbs. The 3rd valve on a G horn. Guards that dance are completely the norm.

They don't want to know why some guy is complaining on line that there is no color pre, how adding this or that, how taking away this or that, no more tick system, that it destroyed the activity. It is so before their time that it is a fairly useless conversation to be a part of. They can't relate.

So you might not think it is right, but frankly they they you are completely wrong. And it really is just that simple.

The "41 years ago" was a reference to the designated hitter rule in baseball.

And I'm not complaining about Bb instruments, or about three-valve horns, or about dancing guards, or the build-up judging system, or corps who don't have an honor guard, or even about amplification or electronics. (Sometimes I complain about bad grammar, though: what on earth does "they they you" mean?)

I'm saying that the audience has every bit as much right to complain about any of these elements as you have to praise them. And I'm saying that there must be things about drum corps that you love, and that you would be sorry to see gone. I'm capable of appreciating the viewpoint that says electronics will improve drum corps; why are you incapable of doing the opposite?

I also don't think that "kids" should be the final arbiter of what drum corps should or should not be: why do people who have had the least amount of time to develop any taste get to overrule everyone else?

[N.E. Brigand]

I hear ya, but as far as the definition of drum corps, who actually decides this?

Ultimately, the governing bodies of drum corps, reflecting what they believe to be the desire of the participants and the audience, will decide this, and in this case they have. But that doesn't mean everyone else is not allowed to have an opinion. I mean, everyone on this forum surely believes the U.S. Congress has made bad decisions, right? And who would say we mustn't complain about those decisions? And while we may think much more highly of drum corps directors--and naturally the importance of what happens in DCI's and DCA's board rooms is less important--they too are capable of making mistakes, about which we should express ourselves.

[Jeff Ream]

To the last item, you might as well ask why all musical ensembles aren't the same. Why doesn't the Canadian Brass make a synth a regular part of their ensemble? Why doesn't the Cleveland Orchestra always include a rock band? Why don't all rap songs include acoustic instrumental breaks, for that matter?

But what I really want is specifics about those effects without which corps are "hamstrung". Sure, you occasionally get an effect like Bluecoats pitch bend. So fine, allow electronics. But don't require them. No judge should be telling a corps, "I'd have given you a higher score, if only you were using a synthesizer." Because the trend is that what is supposed to an option becomes an expectation, even though most of the time it does nothing. I watched about 200 marching band performances this fall. More than 80% of those groups used synthesizers. Of that number, easily 90%, in my opinion, were not not improved by their synthesizers, or were even weaker for their use. Tarpon Springs, this year's BoA champion, who were indeed very good (although I preferred Broken Arrow) would have been even more impressive if they used a live student narrator than a prerecorded adult (it's really strange that BoA has a rule preventing adults from being on the field during the show but doesn't object to using an adult's voice). So all praise to Cadets for doing the right thing in 2014, in that regard (which didn't stop most of the 15 people I took to their first drum corps show this year from finding the whole idea of Cadets narration, live or not, to be pretty cheesy). And lots of bands use synthesizer to try and fill in parts where their winds, to put it bluntly, are weak. Or to cover transitions. But look: f the winds and battery don't have to play for those six bars, they can insert a dance move! And that way they have less music to memorize or play well.

Because at bottom, there must be some definition to drum corps. There are things that are drum corps and things that aren't drum corps, and everyone on these forums would agree that some things aren't drum corps. This change by itself, no more than in DCI, will not push corps irrevocably past the point where everyone would feel they aren't really corps anymore. What I'm really after is just getting people to think about the effects these changes have. If it means the brass are playing less, is that a bad thing or not?

no offense, but we're talking drum corps here. When people look at drum corps, they look at other drum corps or marching bands to see what's there, not the symphony. Plus kids today are more likely to look for rock band stuff than wind ensemble toys.

I judge high school bands and indoor percussion groups, and I've NEVER told a group they'd get a higher score if they used a specific toy. I have however told a group they'd get a higher score if they used certain toys more wisely. IMO, that's the biggest problem the activity faces...poor usage of the electronic toys. I've been with teams that competed in WGI, and we were never told we had to have something to be competitive. we were told to program smarter and perform better.

I'll give you a perfect example in DCA from before the toys came in...the last couple seasons of Empire. Were they fun? Sure! Do we miss them? yes! But, do you think they would have ben more competitive having the toys? Not on your life. They'd have been more competitive if they had a better and more demanding visual program and had all of the gimmicks work better ( especially 2012).

So a kid today checking out drum corps and wondering if they want DCI or DCI, will give 2 ##### what the Cleveland Symphony is doing. They'll be looking at the rest of the marching arts.And DCA, if they continued to refuse to add these things, would continue to look at having a fan base that is slowly but surely dying off, and see kids not being as interested.

[Jeff Ream]

That's not an answer to my question. Most kids don't "have" electronics in marching band. Just a couple of synth players and maybe an electric bassist and guitarist do. The rest of them: what do they have in marching band that they don't have in DCA?

I saw well over 200 bands this fall. More had some type of electronics, or at least a plugged in pit than didn't.

And IMO, some of them should not have plugged in

[Jeff Ream]

The "41 years ago" was a reference to the designated hitter rule in baseball.

And I'm not complaining about Bb instruments, or about three-valve horns, or about dancing guards, or the build-up judging system, or corps who don't have an honor guard, or even about amplification or electronics. (Sometimes I complain about bad grammar, though: what on earth does "they they you" mean?)

I'm saying that the audience has every bit as much right to complain about any of these elements as you have to praise them. And I'm saying that there must be things about drum corps that you love, and that you would be sorry to see gone. I'm capable of appreciating the viewpoint that says electronics will improve drum corps; why are you incapable of doing the opposite?

I also don't think that "kids" should be the final arbiter of what drum corps should or should not be: why do people who have had the least amount of time to develop any taste get to overrule everyone else?

because they are the future.

[Jeff Ream]

Ultimately, the governing bodies of drum corps, reflecting what they believe to be the desire of the participants and the audience, will decide this, and in this case they have. But that doesn't mean everyone else is not allowed to have an opinion. I mean, everyone on this forum surely believes the U.S. Congress has made bad decisions, right? And who would say we mustn't complain about those decisions? And while we may think much more highly of drum corps directors--and naturally the importance of what happens in DCI's and DCA's board rooms is less important--they too are capable of making mistakes, about which we should express ourselves.

sure we complain about Congress, and we all complain.

what changes?

same with drum corps.

[N.E. Brigand]

Sure, we complain about Congress, and we all complain. What changes?

Same with drum corps.

Except that in this case, apparently the kids--or "the future" as you put it--are implicitly complaining that DCA doesn't have any synthesizers, and in response, DCA makes changes.

Although I remain baffled at the idea that there are tuba players out there trying to decide whether or not to join a corps, and deciding against it because the corps doesn't have a synthesizer.