Suicidal Judges

[garfield]

Okay, I'll play along, but I would appreciate it if you could be a bit more civil, maybe even respectful? I've attempted to do the same.

So, you're saying I'm wrong on all counts, right?

I apologize. I'll try to be more "civil".

Your arguments are invalid and misplaced.

I appreciate your concern for the MM's, but that concern is also misplaced as there have been no disasters as a result of perc judges on the field and their reads have been consistent over many seasons.

I believe your desire to move the perc judge into the booth is based on something other than "parity" among the judging staff and performing MM's.

(P.S. If your are afraid of being "educated" by those who actually practice the art, then you are on the wrong site. Perhaps Facebook is a better place for you.)

[Schnitzel]

All my arguments are invalid and misplaced you said.

So not one thing I've discussed has any validity, right?

[Cappybara]

All my arguments are invalid and misplaced you said.

So not one thing I've discussed has any validity, right?

You sound like you're trying to pick a fight. If you want to have a productive discussion, you should probably act the part.

[Schnitzel]

Sorry, Cabbybara. That's an intersting name.

Let's get the safety thing out-of-the way, first.

You do recognize that it will only take one accident of significance to place both the drum corps and DCI at huge financial risk, right? Particularly when the judge is a subcontracted employee of DCI and the member corps. Much different than an event with performers alone.

Legal precedents have been set - public institutions have contingency funds that private ones (like corps) don't.

What am I missing? That it hasn't quite happened yet?

Edited July 20, 2015 by Schnitzel

[Schnitzel]

Oh, and do I have to go thru the credentials and education thing? Does that give credibility on an anonymous forum?

I have seen a "drum judge's sheet," and played a percussion instrument. But not much anymore.

Judged a couple of contests. More band ones than anything else.

You've posted 9,144 times more than I on DCP. I'm gonna get so schooled.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Schnitzel

[N.E. Brigand]

As counterpoint -- you actually can hear all voices quite well in the judge's position in LOS and other indoor stadiums -- that's why they're there. If the programs are designed, orchestrated, and performed for an audience, shouldn't the assessment also be in that position?

This doesn't really contradict your larger point, but: the sound may be fine for the judges, but a decent portion of the audience in Lucas Oil cannot hear all the voices, as I discovered attending Finals in 2012. That year, BD made much use of sampled recordings in French, German, and English, to the annoyance of many audience members over the course of the summer. But from my seats in the 600s--and as the encore proved to me when I moved sideways to the 50, from all the seats in the 600s--those recordings were practically inaudible. The person next to me, who was seeing BD's show for the first time, couldn't hear them at all. That was a case of bad acoustics making a show better, but probably not what the show's designers had in mind.

(OK, I now see that you subsequently acknowledge this point. I wish DCI's apparent attitude wasn't "Caveat emptor for ticket buyers", many of whom have no idea where the sound will be good or bad.)

[N.E. Brigand]

4. How can you "see" from the press box the AMAZING hand work of the Cadets? So much is missed from the box!

Well, I think the counter-argument is this: you can't, but the amazing hand work of the Cadets is irrelevant if most of the audience can't see it. It's like the silent filmmaker Erich von Stroheim insisting that his actors' undergarments, which will never be visible onscreen, be constructed to the same quality as the outer garments.

That's my guess.

Edited July 20, 2015 by N.E. Brigand

[Jeff Ream]

"Horse Hockey?" "Load of Crap?"

Maybe you've been arguing too much with those neo-cons (Dinos?) on Facebook, and that's got your discourse "Trumped Up" a bit. I do expect more from you, based on the things I've read - you seem to be knowledgable, considered and usually considerATE.

Regardless, there is a legitimate conversation to have on this issue. There are definitely pros and cons.

Say what you will, I can hear everything I need to from the box at LOS, SA, STL Ford Field, Trop, and ATL. All of it. I do know that, particularly at LS, there's a lot of places that you can't hear well, and strangely it's as much of a horizontal issue as vertical. Caveat emptor for ticket buyers. @ the Alamodome, you hear better in the box than some places on the field! Of all this I'm certain, and anybody can say whatever they want, but I've spent more time there than most, and there's no argument - trust me or not.

This summer in DCA, percussionists will know to pick up anything essential they drop. It's just that simple, just like WGI, BOA, USBands, etc. for days.

Your assumption that more economical scoring is easier ("load of crap" to be exact) is also just wrong, Jeff. There's 40 years of anecdotal evidence, and also statistical studies of density of scoring that suggest otherwise. Most everyone (whether they realize it or not) complains about the ambiguity, density, and over-diversity of the percussion scoring - it's just too much. There's also state-of-the art writers who strongly advocate this very concept - that if we get the judge off the field, then the writing and performing focus will be in the stands, where it belongs. Again, you don't have to trust me, but I'd prefer not being insulted, if that's okay.

For those who think that think the lines will get "dirtier" when there's no judge trying to chase them around feverishly - that's been proven incorrect in both corps and bands. One of our most iconic writer/techs, whose team has won a number of titles (overall & percussion) admits he won't even go out with his battery in rehearsal!! Also there are some BOA batterys that play every bit as clean as some DCI lines - rarely at the same demand-level, but that's not we're discussing.

It's a legitimate discussion, and we'll know more after this DCA season - the initial feedback from writers and techs has been positive thus far. There are lots of nuances to this issue that go far beyond the surface psuedo-intellectual expressions that go on here - it's a very captivating subject, actually.

Since you mentioned it - the reason I stopped doing the field is that IMO no one has enough access to enough sonically accurate positions to make definitive decisions on rankings. You should only evaluate what you hear (and/or see), and the way the lines are being segmented and playing in diverse listening environments negates an actual statistical reliability to the assessment. much less the score.

It would be akin to doing the Academy Award voting based on three 10-minute segments of the films chosen in random order for each individual voter.

And yes, some writers, and especially techs, like it the way it is now - you might be surprised which-is-which.

BTW: did I write anything to make you angry, or something?

I was considerate, and i quoted Col. Sherman T Potter ( said in Klinger's voice no less). The folks on Facebook amuse me. Why? Because they can't argue facts, the just roll out the same drivel day after day. You claim a study made of swiss cheese to be irrefuctable evidence, yet in talking to more than a few in DCI, there is no desire to take the judge off.

from the box at one of those stadiums, what you hear makes you an ensemble music judge. Are they playing with the brass? Is the pit and battery in time together? Is the drumline overpowering the brass or is the brass under playing? That's what you end up doing. You cannot clearly tell if rolls are clean, the tenor voice all but disappears, and basses get lost on anything but unisions unless nothing else is playing. Depending on the venue, coupled with the brass and amps, you get even less. What it is, IMO, is a tacit acknowledgement that if a percussion guy isnt on ensemble, their voice is ignored. And knowing many people in many of the circuits you mentioned, thats exactly what happens.

I will say having judged upstairs for the last few years, first on GE and now on percussion, I can tell you scoring has gotten easier in many cases, and from some DCA videos I've seen, that doesnt seem to have bucked the trend despite and uptick in talent from the band world. In fact, usually what happens is the note heads that ram for the sake of ramming, try to do even more so it won't be heard as easily, and then the corps has issues as a result. But those note heads usually catch on and it changes in time. I know many state of the art designers that actually will write what they write regardless of location, and have done well with the judge in either location. Doesnt mean it got harder or easier, they write smart...and judge placement has no bearing on that. Intelligence with a pen and paper or Sibelius does.

and i have no idea why you think i'm angry. I didn't say #### once LOL. But to claim this study isn't without holes is to say man never walked on the moon.

In the band world...no judge on the field. Ok, so be it. In drum corps, which has it's biggest shows where you lose more of the sound the farther away you get? Stupidity at it's finest.

it has nothing to do with safety. The odd chance a judge gets hit is less than corps members running into each other. Yeah you may have to duck, dodge and weave, and you better be in shape, but safety's a cop out. There's been a trend in the activity for the last several years to remove all field judges....and all you have to do is look at DCA since the field visual judge was removed.....the dirt gets hidden. If you dont believe me, go back to the videos from Annapolis where corps in the top 3 had memebers clearly blowing halts and way out of step.

[Jeff Ream]

Sorry, Cabbybara. That's an intersting name.

Let's get the safety thing out-of-the way, first.

You do recognize that it will only take one accident of significance to place both the drum corps and DCI at huge financial risk, right? Particularly when the judge is a subcontracted employee of DCI and the member corps. Much different than an event with performers alone.

Legal precedents have been set - public institutions have contingency funds that private ones (like corps) don't.

What am I missing? That it hasn't quite happened yet?

so a judge getting hit is a lawsuit? Um...maybe it's just me, but if you're judging on the field, you know what you're getting into. and I do know a few guys who have been hit...and admit they weren't paying attention....and never once sued a corps, show host or circuit because of it.

[BassFanMom]

Did anyone see the percussion judge in SA get caught in the BK moving circle formation? He made it out alive!