31rabbit Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Could a show that just grabs their rep from a musical Win It All?no advanced theme, just 'music from ______.' if SCV 2013 had the best performers and the best drill, would they have won it all? or is 'complexity of design' now so integrated into the GE score that a Soundtrack show is already starting with a scoring handicap which would be difficult/impossible to overcome? I don't THINK that's the case yet, and I hope it never is, but from the tone of several/many poster it is possible. or at least some posters post as if they want that to be the case. it would be tragic if one of the most popular and effective show-flavors could become irrelevant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drumcorpsfever Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Could a show that just grabs their rep from a musical Win It All? no advanced theme, just 'music from ______.' if SCV 2013 had the best performers and the best drill, would they have won it all? or is 'complexity of design' now so integrated into the GE score that a Soundtrack show is already starting with a scoring handicap which would be difficult/impossible to overcome? I don't THINK that's the case yet, and I hope it never is, but from the tone of several/many poster it is possible. or at least some posters post as if they want that to be the case. it would be tragic if one of the most popular and effective show-flavors could become irrelevant. From a creative standpoint, a Sountrack show is cheating a bit. Although, SCV's Les Mis was absoltely beautiful. Not the best of 2013, but one the least most enjoyable shows of that season. I do think credit should be given for creativity. Thus, a scoring handicap for a show-in-a-box is reasonable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Its been said before, in DCI you can play Dionne Warwick pop songs from the early 60's, to Jingle Bells and place well, provided the Visual/ Guard is of stellar design ( and of course a large international talented pool of interchangeable performers to draw upon each season ). If you don't have a stellar Visual Design and superior performing Guard, you could play the most creative music, from any musical you can possibly think of, but you'll be ska-rood among your pecking order placement peers. ' Not sure how many times we need to repeat this, but from this new thread topic and its ancillary question, a further reaffirmation of this point seems in the calling, imo.. Edited November 25, 2015 by BRASSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Channel3 Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) Its been said before, in DCI you can play Dionne Warwick pop songs from the early 60's, to Jingle Bells and place well, provided the Visual/ Guard is of stellar design ( and of course a large international talented pool of interchangeable performers to draw upon each season ). If you don't have a stellar Visual Design and superior performing Guard, you could play the most creative music, from any musical you can possibly think of, but you'll be ska-rood among your pecking order placement peers. ' Not sure how many times we need to repeat this, but from this new thread topic and its ancillary question, a further reaffirmation of this point seems in the calling, imo.. Between two closely-scoring corps, no judge will award a show first place to the show that has the weaker depth of concept. It's the clincher among top-scoring corps. It's what vaults a corps to the top spot. It's what provides the emotion and lasting meaning to move the audience. A corps with a strong theme, pattern and meaning will defeat a closely-scoring corps without. It's the nature of the art form. Story, theme, meaning and pattern will always trump jukebox-style production design between closely scoring corps. Substance always trumps lack of meaning. And yes, shows with a stronger depth of concept can trump better-executing scores. Depth of concept is that powerful. Edited December 16, 2015 by Channel3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2muchcoffeeman Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) Between two closely-scoring corps, no judge will award a show first place to the show that has the weaker depth of concept. It's the clincher among top-scoring corps. It's what vaults a corps to the top spot. It's what provides the emotion and lasting meaning to move the audience. A corps with a strong theme, pattern and meaning will defeat a closely-scoring corps without. It's the nature of the art form. Story, theme, meaning and pattern will always trump jukebox-style production design between closely scoring corps. Substance always trumps lack of meaning. Okay, but explain Blue Knights 2015. Powerful emotion, minimalist staging, no theme, top-6 finish. "Because" isn't a theme; it's a conjunction. It doesn't suggest a specific pattern. It contains no inherent meaning. "Because" is the name you give a show when you can't come up with anything to describe what you're doing. The only accurate title for BK's 2015 show would have been "Here's a wowser horn line playing some stellar arrangements and one of the better color guards you'll see this summer. Plus some really interesting percussion writing, played with exquisite expression. And some mirrors." But that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, so they decided upon "Because." The show design and performance itself certainly had cohesion, and it may have even revealed a pattern of some kind, though if so, it escaped me. Yet the show had me -- and, apparently, the judges -- entranced. Edited December 17, 2015 by 2muchcoffeeman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRASSO Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 (edited) Between two closely-scoring corps, no judge will award a show first place to the show that has the weaker depth of concept. It's the clincher among top-scoring corps. It's what vaults a corps to the top spot. It's what provides the emotion and lasting meaning to move the audience. The GE caption judges do not gauge how a show" moves the audience" however. They gauge the overall " effect " by what " effect " it has on them personally. We know this, because the judge that singularly ( alone ) WROTE the GE captions ( long time DCI Judge George Oliviero ) said in a video interview many years ago, that he can not properly judge how a show effects others,.. just himself. So the audience is essentially a non factor at the shows. While its true that in the revised GE caption rewrite tweekings a couple of years back, there is a new mention now of " how compelling " is the show with " the audience", it is still the judge making his score based upon how the show effects HIM or HER in its design, demand levels, complexity, creativity, execution, sectional integration, compellingness, and the like. Whether or not the show " moves the audience " is in the domain of the audience. But the show could " move the audience " ten fold, yet get buried by the GE caption judges. We've witnessed this a lot over the years too. As a matter of fact, lots of shows over the years successfully " moved many in the audience " but finished way back of the pack in the GE captions. Conversely, there have been DCI Championships won by Corps ( winning the GE Captions too ) that have generated nothing greater than unenthusiastic, perfunctory, appreciative golf claps for most audiences at most of the shows on their national tour that summer. Thus, to score and place well, a Corps Show and its overall Concept and its overall Design of that Concept needs to " move the judge ", not " move the audience ". Edited December 16, 2015 by BRASSO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenoris4Jazz Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Between two closely-scoring corps, no judge will award a show first place to the show that has the weaker depth of concept. It's the clincher among top-scoring corps. It's what vaults a corps to the top spot. It's what provides the emotion and lasting meaning to move the audience. A corps with a strong theme, pattern and meaning will defeat a closely-scoring corps without. It's the nature of the art form. Story, theme, meaning and pattern will always trump jukebox-style production design between closely scoring corps. Substance always trumps lack of meaning. And yes, shows with a stronger depth of concept can trump better-executing scores. Depth of concept is that powerful. And this is exactly why I don't like DCI much anymore. Why does a show have to have a d*mn concept?!?!?!? Best show I ever saw was '86 Devils. The show concept was "Compared to us... you suck." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
31rabbit Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 "provides the emotion and lasting meaning to affect the audience." I don't see why a soundtrack show can't do that? as evidence I present SCV 89, that show evokes actual tears from more than a few. and 99 scouts. much of 2008 phantom was cribbed from a previous show even. any complaints there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornTeacher Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 The GE caption judges do not gauge how a show" moves the audience" however. They gauge the overall " effect " by what " effect " it has on them personally. We know this, because the judge that singularly ( alone ) WROTE the GE captions ( long time DCI Judge George Oliviero ) said in a video interview many years ago, that he can not properly judge how a show effects others,.. just himself. So the audience is essentially a non factor at the shows. While its true that in the revised GE caption rewrite tweekings a couple of years back, there is a new mention now of " how compelling " is the show with " the audience", it is still the judge making his score based upon how the show effects HIM or HER in its design, demand levels, complexity, creativity, execution, sectional integration, compellingness, and the like. Whether or not the show " moves the audience " is in the domain of the audience. But the show could " move the audience " ten fold, yet get buried by the GE caption judges. We've witnessed this a lot over the years too. As a matter of fact, lots of shows over the years successfully " moved many in the audience " but finished way back of the pack in the GE captions. Conversely, there have been DCI Championships won by Corps ( winning the GE Captions too ) that have generated nothing greater than unenthusiastic, perfunctory, appreciative golf claps for most audiences at most of the shows on their national tour that summer. Thus, to score and place well, a Corps Show and its overall Concept and its overall Design of that Concept needs to " move the judge ", not " move the audience ". I really, really like the above point (bold print). I consider it a truly informed opinion on the part of that judge, and I applaud his implied honesty and humility. For one judge to speak for an entire crowd, and have such affect a competition, I find ludicrous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUARDLING Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) I really, really like the above point (bold print). I consider it a truly informed opinion on the part of that judge, and I applaud his implied honesty and humility. For one judge to speak for an entire crowd, and have such affect a competition, I find ludicrous. You are right but also from that time many judges have changed opinions on many issues from judging to acceptance of design . Now I'm not saying George doesn't feel exactly as he did years earlier or even that ALL feel the same . I am also not saying that i don't agree .As far as what a crowd feels is also left up to many factors and interpretations and can be weighed very differently as to interpretations of rules and sheets and what a person may have meant. THIS is why there has always been debates even in the judging community on the objectiveness of our activity. Edited December 17, 2015 by GUARDLING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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