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eric24

Corps 19-25 Placeing Higher

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So the answer to help corps place better is to water down the friday and saturday performance and make it totally irrelevant? WHAT?

You're right. It doesn't have a snowballs chance because well, that's not the answer to corps wanting to place better.

If 19-25 want to place better, they need to design better shows and acquire teaching staff that can get the most out of their students. That doesn't equate to more money being thrown at the problem, but it does require them to have their stuff together sooner in than they have before. Its not about lowering the standard.

When I marched in Div 2, there were several div 2/3 corps that placed above corps like Spirit and Troopers. Was it good for them, no, but it was good for us to show that corps with 30 horns could come out with better scores than those with double the membership. We didn't have the cash they did, or the membership, but we had the talent and the vision to crack some skulls.

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I can't speak for anyone else, but when I was a young marcher, if we eliminated the competition, scores and judges, I would rather paint houses in the summer than pay money to sleep on gym floors, practice from sun up to sun down, ride cramped busses, etc to do 25- 35 exhibitions of the same 11.5 minute performance. Furthermore, take away the competition aspect of the enterprise, and the product of the performance itself would not get that much better from June to August either, imo. So when you say here that ( quote ) " if you do away with the judges, players will still want to perform", I say a few might still want to perform 30 exhibitions in the summer, but I would have to think DCI would cease to exist if judges and competition was eliminated in the activity, as the vast majority of potential marchers would find something else to do with their summers than to do non competition, non judged, exhibitions. Thats my 2 cents worth of an observation on this anyway.

You're probably right, though I think that's unfortunate. I'd rather see pride of performance for its own sake than pride of being judged better than the next corps. I know for my son, the thrill of performing before crowds is where it's at. And as for the rough life that comes with it, that's part of the fun - like an extended sleepover with your friends!

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How about after Atlanta, no scores are released. At finals on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday would scores and rankings be announced. To me the intrigue and back and conversation (not to mention trash talk) would be priceless. Attendance would increase because of the mystery. I'm sure this has been brought up before. Just curious from those in the know, what would be the detriment of something like this?

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You're probably right, though I think that's unfortunate. I'd rather see pride of performance for its own sake than pride of being judged better than the next corps. I know for my son, the thrill of performing before crowds is where it's at. And as for the rough life that comes with it, that's part of the fun - like an extended sleepover with your friends!

We all had pride of performance. I know in most of the corps (yes, even that one at the top of the food chain) there is no weight placed upon membership to achieve better scores, only better performances from their perspective. They are never told that "we need to hit 80" by a certain point of the summer. Only to constantly be working to produce the best performance that they can possibly do, and to always take everything up one notch from the previous rep or performance.

But if you take away the competition aspect... then it's exhibition... which is lame. It's no longer marching music's major league.

Letting everyone play on friday and saturday makes it an exhibition.

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Ok guys great comments but lets get back on topic. How can 19-25 place higher?

Better design,better staff, and better talent. If those increase and a group above them decreases they move up. There isn't anything else you can really do. I think of world class like the WGI classes

1-7 world class - setting new standards with advanced skills

7-14 open class - intermediate skills/concepts maximizing class expectations

15-22 A class basic skills and concepts

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the OP asked what could help move the 19-25 corps into a more competitive position. Eliminating the arbitrary 12-corps limit to finals would help.

I do believe you make a compelling persuasive argument that eliminating the Top 12 Finals format to another format should be considered. That said, what would you propose to perform at Finals Nite ? Top 15 ? Top 20 ? Top 25 ?.... all of 'em that " competed " to make Finals ? It seems to me that if we changed the Top 12 format to a larger sphere, one that does not include ALL the 40 Corps, then whatever that cut off is ( say 25th ) then that does nothing at all for Corps in 26th to 40th position, nor for Corps 1-4 either. it chaanges nothing for the top 4 Corps, and if anything, it waters down the levels of talent we'd find in Corps 6-14 most years. While I sympathize with the proposal, my proposal ( that few want to entertain ) is some sort of fee payment to Corps perennially at the top to the perennial lower tier Corps for whenever they take on a marcher that has marched for 2 years in these perennial 16-40th placing Corps. Only in DCI Drum Corps would my proposal be viewed as an extreme proposal. Absent some sort of transfer policy implementation ( that few seemingly even want to think about, nor consider ) we are all probably a bit delusional in this activity to believe that any of these present 16th-40th place Corps will ever have a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting a future sniff of moving into the Top 12. Crown did it. They're the only one the last 3 decades. But as I look at the others currently in the 16th-40th placement pecking, not a single one of'em look to me like they'll be the 2nd one to do it over the next 30-50 years. I certainly wish these Corps could have a shot, but under the current transfer policy, lets get real here, they're essentially doomed in the future to remain exactly where many of them have be now for years in the DCI placement pecking order. This not mean the kids can't learn great life long skills, and put out terrifically entertaining shows for fans in many cases. It just means that as far as a realistic shot to move into the Top 12 some day ( or higher ) in the future, they have no realistic shot at all in this regard, imo.

Edited by BRASSO

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Well, then, why go halfway? Have all 40 corps compete all three days.

The only hard-and-fast limitation would be the total number of corps you can run through the stadium in a day and still be able to announce your champion by 11 p.m. Otherwise, you're right. No reason to limit it.

Edited by 2muchcoffeeman

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How about after Atlanta, no scores are released. At finals on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday would scores and rankings be announced.

If judges , judge Corps in competition, the mere basic understanding as to how human nature works, should tell us that those scores that supposedly would be kept secret and would not " be released ", is a nice thought and all, but its totally pie in the sky, imo. Those scores from the judges after Atlanta would find their way into the public domain probably even before the Corps busses left that secret score competition venue.

Edited by BRASSO

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Though not in the 19-25th category, I thought we'd see The Academy break into the top 12, especially after 2011, but that has not happened. I think I expected the same of OC. I also thought 2012 would be a break out year for Pacific Crest and the corps would make improvements in placement. However as others have mentioned, keeping vets is difficult and there are some design issues involved. Mandarins could be a corps to watch. They have been making steady improvements and they seem to be getting stronger as an organization. I know many in Open Class feel Genesis is the corps to watch, with the expectation they will be the next Oregon Crusaders.

Your comment speaks directly to how difficult it is for corps to move up! While the above mentioned corps are making improvements and doing all they can - so are all the other corps above and below them. It is like a dog chasing its tail. It is a rare corps (e.g. Crown) that can rise in the ranks over time and stay financially solvent as they do it. It is also rare for a corps or two to slip so much in one or two seasons that a spot is created to advance another few corps.

Along with design, talent and staff it takes TIME! The Academy has been moving up and in spite of what seems like widespread disappointment that OC didn't just fly up the rankings after they burst onto the WC scene in 2013, they've been in steady improvement mode as well.

Edited by luv4corps

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