4.15 Jump? 6-10 Scores Lower in Finals?

[N.E. Brigand]

I can't believe this is a thread.

You guys do realize Cadets 2 had a unique full day rehearsal schedule the final week right?

They got dramatically better during the final 10 days of the season

The basics programs and terrific design were in place to make this possible - along with the strong instructional team

It isn't some conspiracy - it's called hard work meets good planning and proper preparation

Let's give them the congratulations and credit they deserve!

Extremely impressive finals night performance and a wonderful rise to 1st in 5 seasons!

Don't get me wrong: Cadets2 had a great show and I'm fine with them winning, despite having slightly preferred Buccaneers (both Saturday and Sunday).

But the information I've bolded in your post is news to me, and I wonder what other all-age corps will have to do in the future to compete with a corps that can do that. Require everyone who joins to take the entire week off work?

[drsedlak]

Even if you are correct, the placements were the same both nights, so how much difference can one judge really make?

Also, I really don't understand the coy way in which these claims are being made. Be brave, people, and identify the particular judge you're thinking of and give us the specific numbers that you find concerning, and why.

Sure. Joe Allison. Look at the splits in the Music GE scores.

[Terri Schehr]

Someone shoot me.

[George Dixon]

Don't get me wrong: Cadets2 had a great show and I'm fine with them winning, despite having slightly preferred Buccaneers (both Saturday and Sunday).

But the information I've bolded in your post is news to me, and I wonder what other all-age corps will have to do in the future to compete with a corps that can do that. Require everyone who joins to take the entire week off work?

Don't think/know if was a whole week. I know it was Sunday and Thursday Friday Saturday. They had a send off performance Friday night before heading to Rochester. They did have more practice time right at the end than most

I also agree that Reading was very strong both nights.

Edited September 8, 2016 by George Dixon

[drsedlak]

BTW, for me, having a 4.15 jump is not troubling at all. Bad previous run, followed by kick@$$ run; absent people; great cleaning and new changes...the score jump should be celebrated!

[Fran Haring]

Don't think/know if was a whole week. I know it was Sunday and Thursday Friday Saturday. They had a send off performance Friday night before heading to Rochester. They did have more practice time right at the end than most

Not totally unusual for a corps to follow that schedule, even during this era. With the possible exception of the all-day Thursday thing, if that was the case here.

Heck... BITD, in 1977 my team (Sunrisers) went Monday through Friday evenings, then all day Saturday, leading up to championships... in the days of the "prelims and finals on Sunday" format.

In '78, I remember us slacking off and having Monday night free.

[N.E. Brigand]

Sure. Joe Allison. Look at the splits in the Music GE scores.

Thanks for responding. I thought Allison might be your bête noire.

So let's take a look at his scores vs. that of the other music effect judges on Saturday and Sunday:

PRELIMS FINALS

P. Smith J. Smith J. Allison C. Poole

Cadets2 -- 197 -- 192 -- 191 -- 198

Buccaneers -- 195 -- 196 -- 188 -- 197

Minnesota Brass -- 193 -- 193 -- 195 -- 196

Caballeros -- 190 -- 191 -- 183 -- 190

Fusion Core -- 187 -- 187 -- 176 -- 188

Atlanta CV -- 179 -- 185 -- 172 -- 187

White Sabers -- 180 -- 181 -- 167 -- 179

Sunrisers -- 183 -- 183 -- 170 -- 183

Bushwackers -- 174 -- 178 -- 166 -- 173

Govenaires -- 163 -- 172 -- 165 -- 169

Allison's scores for Cabs, Fusion, CV, Sabers, Sun, and Bush do appear quite low, compared to the other three judges' scores.

He's the only one to put MBI in first, and the only one to put Bucs in third.

And his spread from first to third is almost twice as large as anyone else's.

Admittedly that all seems a bit unusual, but what does it mean? That he has high standards that a number of corps couldn't meet? That he was judging the show of the night while the other judges were all falling in line with the expected pattern? That he just likes Minnesota's musical approach more than other corps? I don't know, but if we replace Allison's scores with those given by Charlie Poole, we'll see some small changes in overall score, but would the order even change? It doesn't appear that way to me. So what is your contention?

[drsedlak]

Thanks for responding. I thought Allison might be your bête noire.

So let's take a look at his scores vs. that of the other music effect judges on Saturday and Sunday:

PRELIMS FINALS

P. Smith J. Smith J. Allison C. Poole

Cadets2 -- 197 -- 192 -- 191 -- 198

Buccaneers -- 195 -- 196 -- 188 -- 197

Minnesota Brass -- 193 -- 193 -- 195 -- 196

Caballeros -- 190 -- 191 -- 183 -- 190

Fusion Core -- 187 -- 187 -- 176 -- 188

Atlanta CV -- 179 -- 185 -- 172 -- 187

White Sabers -- 180 -- 181 -- 167 -- 179

Sunrisers -- 183 -- 183 -- 170 -- 183

Bushwackers -- 174 -- 178 -- 166 -- 173

Govenaires -- 163 -- 172 -- 165 -- 169

Allison's scores for Cabs, Fusion, CV, Sabers, Sun, and Bush do appear quite low, compared to the other three judges' scores.

He's the only one to put MBI in first, and the only one to put Bucs in third.

And his spread from first to third is almost twice as large as anyone else's.

Admittedly that all seems a bit unusual, but what does it mean? That he has high standards that a number of corps couldn't meet? That he was judging the show of the night while the other judges were all falling in line with the expected pattern? That he just likes Minnesota's musical approach more than other corps? I don't know, but if we replace Allison's scores with those given by Charlie Poole, we'll see some small changes in overall score, but would the order even change? It doesn't appear that way to me. So what is your contention?

I have no problem with his order if that was how he saw it. The spreads and boxes are the issue. 15 point difference between judges is simply huge, and explains why the bottom six scores dropped. What was the last judge to have those kinds of spreads between the top ten corps at finals? Or even completely different boxes on the scoresheet?

[N.E. Brigand]

I have no problem with his order if that was how he saw it. The spreads and boxes are the issue. 15-point difference between judges is simply huge, and explains why the bottom six scores dropped. What was the last judge to have those kinds of spreads between the top ten corps at finals? Or even completely different boxes on the scoresheet?

Ah, so it's Atlanta CV's score we're talking about. That's the only 15-point split between Allison and Poole that I see. However, the split between the two judges for Sunrisers was 13 points and for both Fusion Core and White Sabers was 12 points. Those four corps suffered the most.

The average difference between Allison and Poole's scores was 8.7 points. If that had been the difference between them for every corps, then what would change? Well, if my math is correct, then:

Cadets2 and Buccaneers would have a tie score overall . . .

And yes, instead of Atlanta CV being 0.10 behind Fusion Core, they would have been 0.05 ahead.

OK, but what does that mean? That he was deliberately trying to keep C2 ahead of Bucs and Fusion ahead of CV? If that's the argument, I don't buy it. He'd have to know how the other judges were scoring and perform a lot of quick arithmetic. Beyond that, while I agree that a number of corps were underscored, I also don't think that it makes much difference from a practical standpoint whether the sixth place corps has the score of 92.35 rather than 92.65.

[drsedlak]

I picked 15 points as the largest, though you can see the effect this one judge had. My questions, however, were: What was the last judge to have those kinds of spreads between the top ten corps at finals? Or even completely different boxes on the scoresheet?

I never claimed he had a specific intent for any corps, or claimed collusion. But when one judge has the spread between, say, 1st and 5th at 10 points and another in the same caption at 19 points, to me there is an issue.