garfield Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Not easy and not possible have very different meanings. I agree, it wouldn't be easy, but there's nothing impossible about anything here. Everything is both possible and increases accessibility of the activity to additional audiences. If the wrench is "training a staff would be too hard" I'm going to call laziness. As for ticket sales, I actually don't know this. How much more are tickets at late-season shows? Outside of west coast shows and Indy I've never purchased tickets to a show, only performed in them. (and San Antonio a few times, but it's been a few years and I don't remember what I paid). Just some quick math, my Finals tickets were only about 50% more than what I was used to paying at California June shows, so the range is somewhere between $X and 1.5$X. What is a show host's cut on ticket sales? Assuming the full difference is the full 50% ticket sale, and DCI splits ticket sales 50/50 with the show promoter, at most show promoters would lose out on 25% of their ticket sales if they hosted a June show instead of a late July/early August show. And obviously the model is profitable for show promoters, or no one would host shows early season, right? Wait, after everything you've said on the topic over the last few months, you don't see anything hypocritical about that compared to the Blue Devils home state? To your last sentence, No, I don't see anything hypocritical at all. The fact is that early-season shows don't draw the crowds that late-season shows do. I can't speak for any state but Ohio except I was in SoCal for the July 2nd shows and the PC's Pasadena show was pretty-well attended. In Ohio we typically have three shows (it was four until the Glassmen folded!) and, the later the show, the better the attendance. In particular because the Massillon ('Coats) show is a TOC show in recent years and it's usually after A-town just a few days before finals. Our show was late June this year and we had a "moderate" lineup; we made very little. A month later I went to Centerville and it was uncomfortably packed and, as I understand it from the show director, their best ticket sales ever. This is one of the reasons why early-season shows cost less - fans are smart and only the die-hard fans will come out for early-season performances (which is one of the reasons why I'm so vocal about corps not having their shows done before the tour begins. Like I said, fans are smart). I don't dispute your statement. Please explain why "late season shows are more expensive to run and need extra financial risk".... The reason is very simply the math of the DCI contract. TEP's "buy" a show lineup and the contract to host said corps must be paid in full before the show date. The contract price is based upon two criteria: the prior year placement finish of the corps in the show and the show date. For example, a show of the top-6 prior year finishers will cost more than a show of the 6 to 12 placements, which will cost more than a show of 15th to 20th-place finishers. A show of the top-6 will cost less for a June show date than it will for a July show date. It's not uncommon for a "typical" lineup (1 or 2 from the top 6, 1 or 2 from 7th to 12, and 2 or 3 from the 13 to 20 bracket) will cost twice as much for a July 30th show than the same lineup will cost for a June 30th. The risk is that the contract MUST be paid prior to the show date. In the midwest, in late July, the risk of thunderstorms is quite high. In Wyoming the risk of storms in July might not be as high, but the uncertainty of the lineup and the associated required ticket sales most definitely is as high. Can a new TEP, at a new show, in a new location sell enough tickets late season to make the contract obligation? With no prior experience on which to base their ticket prices? With no prior basis to establish ticket prices? Hard to say, yes? And here's the REAL rub: the contract is canceled only if the show is canceled by the DCI show rep at the field, and DCI considers the show canceled ONLY if no performance takes place. And - get this - a performance includes a single corps, standing on the track, doing a standstill in a downpour. Read that again. If it rains all day, and ticket sales are zero at the gate day-of-show, and a corps stands on the track and does a standstill performance (not even required that it be their competition show!), even if it's the ONLY Open class corps performing in the show, the FULL contract cost is due. THERE is the risk. I hope I've made it clear. THAT is why we want a late-season, top-6 show. Fans will pay to see the top six late in the season. But the risk of rain or of mis-pricing the tickets is significant and potentially costly for TEPs who are new and/or in an area that's unproven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ouooga Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 To your last sentence, No, I don't see anything hypocritical at all. The fact is that early-season shows don't draw the crowds that late-season shows do. I can't speak for any state but Ohio except I was in SoCal for the July 2nd shows and the PC's Pasadena show was pretty-well attended. In Ohio we typically have three shows (it was four until the Glassmen folded!) and, the later the show, the better the attendance. In particular because the Massillon ('Coats) show is a TOC show in recent years and it's usually after A-town just a few days before finals. Our show was late June this year and we had a "moderate" lineup; we made very little. A month later I went to Centerville and it was uncomfortably packed and, as I understand it from the show director, their best ticket sales ever. This is one of the reasons why early-season shows cost less - fans are smart and only the die-hard fans will come out for early-season performances (which is one of the reasons why I'm so vocal about corps not having their shows done before the tour begins. Like I said, fans are smart). The reason is very simply the math of the DCI contract. TEP's "buy" a show lineup and the contract to host said corps must be paid in full before the show date. The contract price is based upon two criteria: the prior year placement finish of the corps in the show and the show date. For example, a show of the top-6 prior year finishers will cost more than a show of the 6 to 12 placements, which will cost more than a show of 15th to 20th-place finishers. A show of the top-6 will cost less for a June show date than it will for a July show date. It's not uncommon for a "typical" lineup (1 or 2 from the top 6, 1 or 2 from 7th to 12, and 2 or 3 from the 13 to 20 bracket) will cost twice as much for a July 30th show than the same lineup will cost for a June 30th. The risk is that the contract MUST be paid prior to the show date. In the midwest, in late July, the risk of thunderstorms is quite high. In Wyoming the risk of storms in July might not be as high, but the uncertainty of the lineup and the associated required ticket sales most definitely is as high. Can a new TEP, at a new show, in a new location sell enough tickets late season to make the contract obligation? With no prior experience on which to base their ticket prices? With no prior basis to establish ticket prices? Hard to say, yes? And here's the REAL rub: the contract is canceled only if the show is canceled by the DCI show rep at the field, and DCI considers the show canceled ONLY if no performance takes place. And - get this - a performance includes a single corps, standing on the track, doing a standstill in a downpour. Read that again. If it rains all day, and ticket sales are zero at the gate day-of-show, and a corps stands on the track and does a standstill performance (not even required that it be their competition show!), even if it's the ONLY Open class corps performing in the show, the FULL contract cost is due. THERE is the risk. I hope I've made it clear. THAT is why we want a late-season, top-6 show. Fans will pay to see the top six late in the season. But the risk of rain or of mis-pricing the tickets is significant and potentially costly for TEPs who are new and/or in an area that's unproven. So you're saying: Early season shows in SoCal are well attended (I was at Pasadena too, it was pretty packed) Late season shows are better attended than early season Late season shows are more profitable Sounds like there's some money being left on the table if late season shows aren't brought to the engaged SoCal audience. Side note: even at three shows, your state got three more shows than my state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) So you're saying: Early season shows in SoCal are well attended (I was at Pasadena too, it was pretty packed) Late season shows are better attended than early season Late season shows are more profitable Sounds like there's some money being left on the table if late season shows aren't brought to the engaged SoCal audience. Side note: even at three shows, your state got three more shows than my state. I've been to two years of SoCal shows (Oceanside and Rose Bowl) and both seemed well-attended. I can only speak to Rose Bowl's bottom line and, simply, it made money. Late season shows in Ohio, where there are three shows within 2 1/2 hours of each other, are better attended than early-season, In our experience. Late season shows MIGHT be more profitable IF: A. ticket pricing takes advantage of the demand for late-season, top-finishers, and B. The weather cooperates. All this is why I think that your fictitious show schedule should place NEW shows (as you call them) early in the season and in a part of the country (like SoCal) where the risk of weather is minimal or predictable. IMO, simply moving the Dublin show to June and placing a NEW show in WY late in the season is not a risk that I (and more importantly, DCI) would take. And, as the Dublin TEP, I most-likely would refuse a June date, which leaves DCI scrambling to find a show host (likely a new and inexperienced one) to take the risk and fill in. "Possible"? Sure. Worth the risk? Doubtful. Edited October 6, 2016 by garfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Sounds like there's some money being left on the table if late season shows aren't brought to the engaged SoCal audience. BTW, I would absolutely agree with this statement. The problem is that most corps are east of the Mississippi and headed to Indy in the late season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) Side note: even at three shows, your state got three more shows than my state. well ohio borders indiana. kind of obvious :-) Edited October 5, 2016 by corpsband Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corpsband Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) DCI scrambling to find a show host (likely a new and unexperienced one) to take the risk and fill in. this point applies to the all those "new" shows in the proposed schedule. new TEPs are a very big financial risk. and DCI is already running more non-regional shows than they'd prefer to run. Edited October 5, 2016 by corpsband 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 This is one of the reasons why early-season shows cost less - fans are smart and only the die-hard fans will come out for early-season performances (which is one of the reasons why I'm so vocal about corps not having their shows done before the tour begins. Like I said, fans are smart). I guess I'm a die-hard fan then...I love early season shows...as well as late season shows... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 Side note: even at three shows, your state got three more shows than my state. move 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 this point applies to the all those "new" shows in the proposed schedule. new TEPs are very big financial risk. and DCI is already more shows than they'd prefer to run. hammer, meet nail-head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garfield Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 move I laughed out loud, then said "Well, yea. There's that answer." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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