Stu Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Tobias said: We know there are a few "senior" judges who "consult" the rest of the pact how things should start to move as the season progresses. If they don't follow that, you see those judges at less shows. Really? We know this to be fact? Please, by all means, cite real examples where this actually occurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imcbdit Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Stu said: However, according to Black’s Law Dictionary there are multiple definitions. Notice that the first definition does not include the necessity of secrecy; only the second definition states secrecy. Collusion: A deceitful agreement or compact between two or more persons, for the one party to bring an action against the other for some evil purpose, as to defraud a third party of his right (Cowell). A secret arrangement between two or more persons, whose interests are apparently conflicting, to make use of the forms and proceedings of law in order to defraud a third person, or to obtain that which justice would not give them, by deceiving a court or its officers (Baldwin v. New York). http://thelawdictionary.org/collusion/ The common, accepted dictionary meaning is perhaps more important here since this is not a legal proceeding but a drum corps discussion forum. DCI judges meeting in the open would hardly be called collusion but instead critique! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, imcbdit said: The common, accepted dictionary meaning is perhaps more important here since this is not a legal proceeding but a drum corps discussion forum. DCI judges meeting in the open would hardly be called collusion but instead critique! But.... can you, or anyone else, cite one instance, just one factual instance, where the DCI judges have met openly to discuss the 'heard mentality' application of scores and rankings in which they have been accused of within this tread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imcbdit Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, Stu said: But.... can you, or anyone else, cite one instance, just one factual instance, where the DCI judges have met openly to discuss the 'heard mentality' application of scores and rankings in which they have been accused of within this tread? Post contest bar sessions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 4 hours ago, hostrauser said: I'll go a different route: these are who I consider the best judges in DCI at "thinking for themselves" and giving the MOST fair and accurate scoring and spreads. Here are my Top 5 (alphabetically). Joe Allison Glenn Fugett Albert Lo Paul McGarr Jeff Prosperie I will refrain from TORCHing the PINheads I think are on the SAUCE every time they judge. But, if Allison, Fugett, Lo, McGarr, and Prosperie all placed the same corps in first place at Finals, and (name any other judge) placed another corps in first that would possibly indicate those five were exhibiting herd mentality and the other would be the one thinking for himself. See the flaw here of accusing judges of herd mentality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, imcbdit said: Post contest bar sessions? And you were there at those bar sessions? So, you can confirm that you actually heard the judges conferring with each other on where they will place what corps? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imcbdit Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Stu said: And you were there at those bar sessions? So, you can confirm that you actually heard the judges conferring with each other on where they will place what corps? You should carefully read what I posted. I simply pointed out that "collusion" was a term entirely injected by you; the first poster never suggested collusion. You simply invented it and then tried to get others to prove it. In fact "herd instinct" directly counters your use of collusion -- an instinct is not planned, secret nor does it require meetings. It's the tendency to follow the majority. Edited May 17, 2017 by imcbdit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hostrauser Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 12 minutes ago, Stu said: But, if Allison, Fugett, Lo, McGarr, and Prosperie all placed the same corps in first place at Finals, and (name any other judge) placed another corps in first that would possibly indicate those five were exhibiting herd mentality and the other would be the one thinking for himself. See the flaw here of accusing judges of herd mentality? Nope. You are still operating with that false dichotomy flaw. You're considering only ON (herd mentality) or OFF (herd mentality), assuming ALL scores from ALL judges must be one or the other, and not considering anything in between. Which is silly. Each discrete judging sample does not exist in a vacuum. Over a hundred shows, even the most HERD judge will have outlier scores, and even the most independent thinker will have scores that gravitate towards the mean. Trends and sample size matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.E. Brigand Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 5 hours ago, hostrauser said: I'll go a different route: these are who I consider the best judges in DCI at "thinking for themselves" and giving the MOST fair and accurate scoring and spreads. Here are my Top 5 (alphabetically). [...] I don't question the integrity of these people, not in the least. I will note, however, that even they are human and capable of error. A few years ago, I was in touch with a staff member from a corps, during the off-season, about an aspect of that corps' show the previous summer that intrigued me: something that I felt was technically challenging and wanted to know a bit more about, but that based on comments here on DCP, and perhaps on the corps' final standing as per the judges (although one could certainly argue that other factors besides this element affected their placement), was not more widely appreciated. The staffer was kind enough to explain the details of this feature I had observed and enjoyed about the show, but then added that no judge at any point during the season had commented on what I discerned. And I know that at least one of the good people you named had seen the corps that year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrumManTx Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) I don't invest a ton in what a corps is wearing............I'll usually think something is cool/ugly when they walk out onto the field and then as soon as the drum major starts conducting I forget what they're wearing (and if I don't forget what they're wearing there's probably something wrong with the show). I think the reaction to uniforms as of late has been pretty ridiculous/exaggerated myself, however I'm not discrediting/dismissing those thoughts but I just think putting that much enjoyment into a uniform....is a bit much. My two favorite modern shows from Santa Clara Vanguard after 2016 are 2010s "Bartok" and 2011s "The Devils Staircase". Mainly courtesy of Pete Weber. Who is a genius. Edited May 17, 2017 by DrumManTx 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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