Unpopular Opinions?

[cixelsyd]

6 hours ago, Stu said:

I am not taking a binary position at all.  I am just showing that there is a huge flaw in believing that when DCI judges come to the same conclusion the DCI judges are exhibiting a herd mentality, with a head of the heard calling the shots, that was claimed and posted by Tobias.  The DCI judges typically come to the same conclusion because of two main reasons: 1) The DCI judges come from similar DCI, WGI, BOA, Academic backgrounds; and 2) They all go through the same DCI training on how to interpret the sheets.  That is not a herd mentality with a lack of independent thought by the judges with a leader of the herd calling the shots; that is just a case of DCI securing like-minded marching-arts experienced people up-front as adjudicators as opposed to also seeking out qualified professional and commercial musicians with no marching-arts backgrounds to judge alongside Albert Lo and Jeff Prosperie (to use two judges names posted by you).

So with or without a leader, there can still be a herd mentality.

[Tobias]

My point is with drum corps scoring so heavily skewed in the subjective caption of GE, I'd expect to see less "we all love that show" scoring. More independent thinkers judging. The senior judges (George O etal) tend to create the riptide mid season and the rest of the minds tend to get dragged into that thinking. I never said collusion, but rather a subjective momentum. Maybe it's unavoidable, but by 2-3 weeks into July, you start witnessing shifts in rankings as opinions are starting to become a bit too organized in such a supposedly subjective system. 

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, cixelsyd said:

 Maybe I am not following what you are saying.  What do you propose we promote/relegate corps to/from, exactly?  

Let's say DCI (corps directors) decide that WC will be 20 corps.  After prelims, the corps that finish 18th and lower are now relegated to OC.  The top three from OC finals are bumped up to WC.   If the majority of directors agree to something like this, then all corps would have to abide to this change which could present other issues.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Ghost

[cowtown]

I agree there is a herd mentality from the judges, and I know herds, moo!

[MikeD]

2 hours ago, Tobias said:

My point is with drum corps scoring so heavily skewed in the subjective caption of GE, I'd expect to see less "we all love that show" scoring. More independent thinkers judging. The senior judges (George O etal) tend to create the riptide mid season and the rest of the minds tend to get dragged into that thinking. I never said collusion, but rather a subjective momentum. Maybe it's unavoidable, but by 2-3 weeks into July, you start witnessing shifts in rankings as opinions are starting to become a bit too organized in such a supposedly subjective system. 

 

By that timeframe, the shows are all (well almost all) complete and corps are moving along the cleaning/tweaking continuum, so there is a lot less variety in what each corps is presenting to the judges in the completeness area. It is a more apples-to-apples comparison, so to speak.

[Tobias]

2 hours ago, MikeD said:

 

By that timeframe, the shows are all (well almost all) complete and corps are moving along the cleaning/tweaking continuum, so there is a lot less variety in what each corps is presenting to the judges in the completeness area. It is a more apples-to-apples comparison, so to speak.

Agreed 100% so I become very skeptical when large gaps appear in scoring. If anything, there should be a tightening of scores and allow the best performances to prevail not preconceived ratings. 

[Fran Haring]

5 minutes ago, Tobias said:

Agreed 100% so I become very skeptical when large gaps appear in scoring. If anything, there should be a tightening of scores and allow the best performances to prevail not preconceived ratings. 

Great points.

I found it refreshing last season in DCA, when it appeared through mid to late August that the Buccaneers were a lock to win, that C2's momentum in the last couple of weeks of the season... the last week or in particular... was not ignored by the judges.

Watching C2 at prelims... I really thought the best performance (theirs) won that day... and it so happened the judges thought so, too. (Can't really comment to any degree, any year, on DCA Finals... since I announce that show, I'm usually too busy to pay close attention to anything except my job.  LOL)

[Stu]

5 hours ago, cixelsyd said:

So with or without a leader, there can still be a herd mentality.

 

4 hours ago, Tobias said:

My point is with drum corps scoring so heavily skewed in the subjective caption of GE, I'd expect to see less "we all love that show" scoring. More independent thinkers judging. The senior judges (George O etal) tend to create the riptide mid season and the rest of the minds tend to get dragged into that thinking. I never said collusion, but rather a subjective momentum. Maybe it's unavoidable, but by 2-3 weeks into July, you start witnessing shifts in rankings as opinions are starting to become a bit too organized in such a supposedly subjective system. 

 

2 hours ago, cowtown said:

I agree there is a herd mentality from the judges, and I know herds, moo!

If it is your position that DCI judges exist with a herd mentality because they mainly come to the same conclusions on what they subjectively observe, to be consistent you must also hold that same position for MLB Umpires, NFL Referees, et al… Because they all typically come from the same backgrounds in the sport in which they engage, they all go through the same training within their respective sports sanctioning bodies, and they mainly come to the same subjective observational conclusions within their respective competitions on what they observe within the competitive arena. (and if anyone claims that the observed strike zone, for example, is ‘objective’ in baseball they have never seriously watched the game of baseball)

[Tobias]

27 minutes ago, Stu said:

 

 

If it is your position that DCI judges exist with a herd mentality because they mainly come to the same conclusions on what they subjectively observe, to be consistent you must also hold that same position for MLB Umpires, NFL Referees, et al… Because they all typically come from the same backgrounds in the sport in which they engage, they all go through the same training within their respective sports sanctioning bodies, and they mainly come to the same subjective observational conclusions within their respective competitions on what they observe within the competitive arena. (and if anyone claims that the observed strike zone, for example, is ‘objective’ in baseball they have never seriously watched the game of baseball)

 

Ok. I'll text Major League Baseball tomorrow. 

[E3D]

6 minutes ago, Tobias said:

Ok. I'll text Major League Baseball tomorrow. 

You forgot the NFL. 

I agree with your take. 

I wish like HE double toothpicks that there was a Fan judging app. If done correctly then it would be interesting. Also this will cause some to quake and shake here but I wish there was a Fan approval caption for the folks who are at the live show. It does not have to count for the points but could be shown alongside the actual scores of what the fans like. Sorta like the rotten tomatoes deal where the "experts" (in this case the judges) rate something and then the popcorn icon that indicates the people who just paid coin to see the show and how they view it.