Need help with BD Chop and Paste, Walk and Stand approach to design

[Lance]

15/10,would read again

[Cappybara]

13 hours ago, ThePlanets said:

My husband took me to DCI finals in 2012 for my birthday.  It was my first show that I had been to since the Pittsburgh show in 2005.  It was my first time seeing BD live and I was super excited especially after seeing Crown.

I actually have been lurking and following DCP since then even though I just joined because I needed to understand a few things better ;-)

This thread has gotten way out of hand and I don't find it appropriate to share my personal opinion on the 2012 blue devils show but to come to Stu's defense it was far from the crowd favorite...at least from where I was sitting. And there is a nice YouTube video you can find about when they accidentally announced BD as the brass caption winner that year(which has nothing to do with visual design) but it is a crowd reaction reference.

Lol but the poor OP was talking about this year's design transitions. This year is another animal in show design.

He is being criticized (atleast by me) for baselessly connecting some "stagnation of the fanbase" with the design direction of DCI. It has nothing to do with the popularity of BD, which even I know was not a popular show. 

He still refuses to provide any numbers, he just points to the "local shows" and how they're no longer there, but fails to realize that it is IRRELEVANT to his point, and this is because the transition from the entertainment focused style to the "education" style that he is referring to occurred AFTER the local shows all went away. Therefore using these local shows as your basis for stagnating attendance and blaming it on the design direction of DCI is monkey business. 

There are so many confounding factors involved that he simply can't comprehend or just refuses to acknowledge. But that doesn't serve his narrative that the new drum corps that he hates so much is decreasing audience numbers, so I understand why it's easier for him to just ignore the fact. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Cappybara

[Cappybara]

12 hours ago, BDCorno said:

I'm sorry bro (assuming you're a guy), but you have no clue what you're talking about. What you assert is clearly false. Have you ever taken the time to look at high cams of Crown and BD in 2016? You really should, so that you can see how wrong you are about "park and play" between the two groups. Crown parks and plays way more than BD, they just do it more often for less time in each event. Maybe you consider standing and "shaking the #### off your shoe", "adjusting your junk", "squats" and "leg kicks" as "marching", but Crown is king of that approach. Masking the fact they're standing around by doing all this noodling around or close-proximity moves to distract you from the fact that they're really not moving. Their overall marching (44%) to standing around (38%) to running/walking to sets (18%) is surprising to you, isn't it? In addition, much of the marching isn't when they're playing. It's apparent that you missed the fact that anything difficult that Crown plays is in a static position (with some of the shake and bake to distract). Don't get me wrong, it's well done, everything is in context, but if you don't pay attention, you won't realize what's going on. Wonderful horn line there that plays their ##### off, but the relative difficulty of book plus marching difficulty and movement between Crown and BD isn't even close. Loved both shows, I would have been fine if either had won last year. You might want to look at those videos...Crown didn't attempt more.

P.S. - There is nothing "less organized" about BD and their transitions. If you think for a moment that they're throwaways or somehow poorly put together, you're sadly mistaken.
 

PREACH

[jwillis35]

17 hours ago, Cappybara said:

There's several things that makes me believe a couple posters are simply shitposting rather than actually trying to make valid points 

1. They are trying to talk for everyone. They are making statements like "this is what drum corps should be, not that" or "a majority of fans are leaving competitions feeling empty"

2. They refuse to give any actual numbers to back up their claims. Just anecdotal evidence and deductive reasoning 

3. They are ignoring any and all confounding variables with regards to the assertion of "DCI's stagnate fan base is due to the design direction of DCI" They are entirely relying on correlation = causation. We don't live in a vacuum. 

On point no. 1, there are plenty of folks who think they can pinpoint the type of entertainment most people would like to see, or that they SHOULD see. They want to tell us what we should like and what DCI SHOULD be.  I try to refrain from that.  I don't know what Drum Corps is supposed to be, I only know that it WILL BE what the corps themselves decide to produce.  Those corps will follow the youth movement.  If the kids stop coming to auditions, then they will change their tune.  

 

As for point no. 2: whether we like it or not, the WGI, BOA effect on DCI is what brought a lot of youth to the activity. I don't expect everyone to like it.  The younger base of fans is where DCI has to concentrate its marketing. Many are marching, and many are fans. Newer and younger fans = dollars.  Lots of youth marching = dollars to the corps.  We've seen more youth auditioning for drum corps than we have in a long time.  We have seen the rise of a number of new drum corps (like Genesis, etc.) and the open class circuit has become more robust. Much more so than it was in the 90s or early 2000s. Show attendance has been good to really good.  During the 1980s (a period of corps that I loved) we sadly saw the demise of too many corps to list. From Bridgemen, 27th Lancers, North Star, Avant Guarde, Pride of Cincinnati, and many many others. Even corps like Garfield, Crossmen, Glassmen were always in financial trouble. The Bluecoats in the early 80s were in financial trouble -- almost folded.  Phantom Regiment was in huge financial trouble in the 90s and early 2000s, and the stories like this are a plenty.  As much as I loved the 80s and 90s, I was tired of hearing about the death of another corps. 

 

Back to the chop & paste effect. Drum & Bugle Corps has always utilized a chop & paste method with music, but it was somewhat less so in the 1970s and 1980s because visual wasn't driving the bus. No doubt. For those saying songs like "Memory" or "Ice Castles" were played in full -- um no. The Broadway songs are much longer.  Madison took those tunes and arranged them for field. BD did the same, as did Cavaliers and others.  Nobody was playing those songs in full, but the arrangements didn't feel forced and corps tended to only play 3 or 4 tunes.  Today's corps tend to put a lot of music into a show, there is no doubt about that.  And I will admit that sometimes that is a turnoff to me. If the corps is unable to make the music book flow then chances are I will not like the show as much.  

 

Having said that I have also wanted more integration with visual.  The two can work well with each other (great music and visual) and I still see plenty of moments like this in drum corps.  I also see a WGI/BOA effect, but I am fine with that. I want the activity to be exciting for our youth. I want HS and College kids to march or become fans. The activity will only survive if they get involved.  As for us old timers, and I speak for myself only here, it is doubtful I will ever love a decade more than the 1980s. That is when I grew up, when I was in HS and College, when I began seeing shows, when I was marching in my HS band, etc.  Despite my love of the 1980s, I feel drum corps is better off today. I feel corps are managed better. I see more enthusiasm with the youth.  And admittedly I see lots of shows each summer that I really like, and the Blue Devils (the igniter of this thread) have grabbed me with some super special shows in the last decade (2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016).  By the way, I feel this 2017 show is going to be special when all said and done. 

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by jwillis35

[Cappybara]

7 minutes ago, jwillis35 said:

On point no. 1, there are plenty of folks who think they can pinpoint the type of entertainment most people would like to see, or that they SHOULD see. They want to tell us what we should like and what DCI SHOULD be.  I try to refrain from that.  I don't know what Drum Corps is supposed to be, I only know that it WILL BE what the corps themselves decide to produce.  Those corps will follow the youth movement.  If the kids stop coming to auditions, then they will change their tune.  

 

As for point no. 2: whether we like it or not, the WGI, BOA effect on DCI is what brought a lot of youth to the activity. I don't expect everyone to like it.  The younger base of fans is where DCI has to concentrate its marketing. Many are marching, and many are fans. Newer and younger fans = dollars.  Lots of youth marching = dollars to the corps.  We've seen more youth auditioning for drum corps than we have in a long time.  We have seen the rise of a number of new drum corps (like Genesis, etc.) and the open class circuit has become more robust. Much more so than it was in the 90s or early 2000s. Show attendance has been good to really good.  During the 1980s (a period of corps that I loved) we sadly saw the demise of too many corps to list. From Bridgemen, 27th Lancers, North Star, Avant Guarde, Pride of Cincinnati, and many many others. Even corps like Garfield, Crossmen, Glassmen were always in financial trouble. Phantom Regiment was in huge financial trouble in the 90s and early 2000s, and the stories like this are a plenty.  As much as I loved the 80s and 90s, I was tired of hearing about the death of another corps. 

 

Back to the chop & paste effect. Drum & Bugle Corps has always utilized a chop & paste method with music, but it was somewhat less so in the 1970s and 1980s because visual wasn't driving the bus. No doubt. For those saying songs like "Memory" or "Ice Castles" were played in full -- um no. The Broadway songs are much longer.  Madison took those tunes and arranged them for field. BD did the same, as did Cavaliers and others.  Nobody was playing those songs in full, but the arrangements didn't feel forced and corps tended to only play 3 or 4 tunes.  Today's corps tend to put a lot of music into a show, there is no doubt about that.  And I will admit that sometimes that is a turnoff to me. If the corps is unable to make the music book flow then chances are I will not like the show as much.  

 

Having said that I have also wanted more integration with visual.  The two can work well with each other (great music and visual) and I still see plenty of moments like this in drum corps.  I also see a WGI/BOA effect, but I am fine with that. I want the activity to be exciting for our youth. I want HS and College kids to march or become fans. The activity will only survive if they get involved.  As for us old timers, and I speak for myself only here, it is doubtful I will ever love a decade more than the 1980s. That is when I grew up, when I was in HS and College, when I began seeing shows, when I was marching in my HS band, etc.  Despite my love of the 1980s, I feel drum corps is better off today. I feel corps are managed better. I see more enthusiasm with the youth.  And admittedly I see lots of shows each summer that I really like, and the Blue Devils (the igniter of this thread) have grabbed me with some super special shows in the last decade (2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2016).  By the way, I feel this 2017 show is going to be special when all said and done. 

 

Glad I called you over to this thread 

agreed with everything you said. 

[cfirwin3]

Such a long-standing discussion here.  It's been going on since... Well, a long time.

Without jumping too deep into the pond... I'll just stick my toe in and say that it seems as if the premise of the question assumes that orchestration and voicing decisions in arranging aren't really important or complicated.  It seems to put all of the heavy weight on thematic organization and transitions.

Those BD arrangements are well written (piecing together unrelated material in a way that works and still preserves the themes, with occasional integration is not simply a matter of "cutting and pasting").

As for how well people receive it in performance with visuals...  BD is a popular corps for the attributes that they have and in spite of criticism.  There's no reason for them to do anything differently.  I'm a big fan... and I wouldn't want to see them trying to be more like some other group.

Edited July 10, 2017 by cfirwin3

[cixelsyd]

There has been some discussion of attendance, and whether it correlates to entertainment.  That is a valid concern, but some people are less concerned than others.  While attendance is not what it once was (for example, in 1981), the most recent 5-year trends suggest stability, perhaps even a slight uptrend.

More generally, a drum corps contest is a combination of musical/visual and competitive entertainment.  As long as DCI and their corps offer enough of either of those, and sell well enough to pay most of their bills, they will conclude that what they are offering the public is satisfactory.

As for the nature of show design, as long as competitive results are determined by a comparatively tiny pool of tenured judges, do not be surprised if designs conform to their tastes.

[cixelsyd]

19 hours ago, Cappybara said:

There's several things that makes me believe a couple posters are simply shitposting rather than actually trying to make valid points 

1. They are trying to talk for everyone. They are making statements like "this is what drum corps should be, not that" or "a majority of fans are leaving competitions feeling empty"

2. They refuse to give any actual numbers to back up their claims. Just anecdotal evidence and deductive reasoning 

3. They are ignoring any and all confounding variables with regards to the assertion of "DCI's stagnate fan base is due to the design direction of DCI" They are entirely relying on correlation = causation. We don't live in a vacuum. 

1.  Talking for others... like what you do in your first sentence?

2.  Where are your numbers?

3.  Yes, we do not live in a vacuum.  But that cuts both ways.  While you cannot assume correlation = causation, you cannot categorically dismiss the possibility either.

[Cappybara]

4 minutes ago, cixelsyd said:

1.  Talking for others... like what you do in your first sentence?

2.  Where are your numbers?

3.  Yes, we do not live in a vacuum.  But that cuts both ways.  While you cannot assume correlation = causation, you cannot categorically dismiss the possibility either.

1. Difference between talking for others vs making observations on what people are doing 

2. http://m.dci.org/mobile/ViewArticle.dbml?atclid=210283444&DB_OEM_ID=33500&

http://www.flomarching.com/article/45989-record-crowds-gather-at-dci-events-but-that-s-just-half-the-story

http://soundsport.com/dci-programs-growing-position-business-strength/

(Apologies for any mobile links, im currently abroad and using a smartphone)

3. I'm not categorically dismissing anything, I am punching holes in Stu's argument. I have not made any claim that design changes are NOT leading to lower attendance, I have been refuting that it's the major or only factor.

 

[cixelsyd]

3 hours ago, Cappybara said:

He still refuses to provide any numbers, he just points to the "local shows" and how they're no longer there, but fails to realize that it is IRRELEVANT to his point, and this is because the transition from the entertainment focused style to the "education" style that he is referring to occurred AFTER the local shows all went away.  

Shows have been moving more academic since the 1920s, and that trend is not done yet.  The loss of local shows did occur somewhere in that 90-year window.