Jeff Ream Posted December 22, 2017 Author Share Posted December 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Stu said: Both the tic system of yester-year and the build-up system of today are subjective systems; there is nothing objective about opinion evaluation. That said there is more ambiguity with identifying what is great (ie who is better, Chicago Symphony or Boston Symphony), as opposed to what is error (ie who made more mistakes between those two). So to gain consistency within a build-up scoring system you train judges for cookie-cutter evaluation within subjective opinion scoring and ranking; not only to the sheets but to each other as judges (part of the evaluation to become a DCI judge is how close you score and rank to current judges). With that you also end up with a form of slotting. Why? Because quite frankly while the Chicago Symphony and the Boston have different sound they are equally great; and neither should have to give up their own unique sound for the sake of score and rank. However, the judges are trained to place the sound of Chicago as being the better of the two, which forces Boston to either change their sound or get whacked; and then if any judge dares to say, "Nope, the Boston sound is better" that judge gets axed for upsetting the adjudicating apple-cart). BITD, few sheets had actual criteria on them. NOW every sheet does. It doesn't tell you specifically what to score and what. Under the tic system, personal bias in what was and wasn't clean played far more into the results than anything could today. A Ge sheet today doesnt tell you specifically is good or isn't. it gives you bullet points of things to consider when evaluating. it doesnt specify if you have to hit them all, it just gives you suggestions of things to look at that could help make things effective. Corps have been morphing their styles for decades in the chase of better scores. This is nothing new or nor is it an indictment of the scoring system. Often someone tries something new, and boom, people follow. Trends are born, and replaced by new trends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 22, 2017 Author Share Posted December 22, 2017 i'm curious to see how the amplification proposal does. i think it left some ambiguity there in terms of electronic usage that could still lead to what many consider abuse with sampling and such, but unless the T&P judge stands right over the kids shoulder and watches what buttons they push, we will probably never see some of those issues go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gak27 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 21 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: i'm curious to see how the amplification proposal does. i think it left some ambiguity there in terms of electronic usage that could still lead to what many consider abuse with sampling and such, but unless the T&P judge stands right over the kids shoulder and watches what buttons they push, we will probably never see some of those issues go away. I thought that as well on first read. I was also disappointed it didn't extend its scope to addressing 'thunderous goo' in some way (volume, use, extent, etc.)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glory Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 48 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: ...Corps have been morphing their styles for decades in the chase of better scores. This is nothing new or nor is it an indictment of the scoring system. Often someone tries something new, and boom, people follow. Trends are born, and replaced by new trends. The trend I most want to see changed is the one where judges don't differentiate when the bulk of the brass line only plays half and whole notes on the move. Any remotely challenging passages are stationary. Cavies and SCV were among those benefitting from this largesse last summer. Of course, the amplified brass choir was another multiplier for SCV. How do we level this playing field? HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 22, 2017 Author Share Posted December 22, 2017 46 minutes ago, gak27 said: I thought that as well on first read. I was also disappointed it didn't extend its scope to addressing 'thunderous goo' in some way (volume, use, extent, etc.)... volume won't be an issue until there's some study about it's affects. right now there's more of a focus on judges on the fields in studies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 22, 2017 Author Share Posted December 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, glory said: The trend I most want to see changed is the one where judges don't differentiate when the bulk of the brass line only plays half and whole notes on the move. Any remotely challenging passages are stationary. Cavies and SCV were among those benefitting from this largesse last summer. Of course, the amplified brass choir was another multiplier for SCV. How do we level this playing field? HH honestly i think the amplified brass helped SCV less than you think.I think by the end of the season it didnt get what it could have because the judges realized it was in some ways smoke and mirrors. As for the on the move issue....i'm partially there with you. I do recognize the demands with all of the body stuff, which does happen in the notier passages. While you mention SCV and Cavies, BD has benefited from that tremendously for 10 years now. The thing is this....the judges are to do what the corps want. Well, in the music captions, if you don't blow loads over all of the various physical demands on your recording, you'll get skewered. But the visual side rarely gives credit for musical demands. There may be some, but a majority of visual judges aren't musicians, they are visual people.They don't know how hard it is to play and do some of that stuff. They look at it from a purely visual only point, but music has to consider both, or get destroyed for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liahona Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: I'll disagree to a point. if you come out June 20th and you're popping 9's in the sub boxes, you're going to peak in, oh 3 weeks. So then what?Someone stays at a 90 or above all season because the performer is out performing the book. You look at a BD in June and then at finals, and you can see the growth in the performer, and how it allows the clarity of the design to show through. I'll agree with you to a point...I guess it's better to show the movement...I just don't see the difference as stark as judges try to portray it in their numbers with the top corps...This difference is especially apparent in years when a certain corps comes out hot out of the gate... In terms of progression I could close my eyes and predict when corps will break 80 or 90 for example...may be a different corps but the timing is almost certain...I guess that's why I see it as being more of an artificial movement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted December 24, 2017 Author Share Posted December 24, 2017 On 12/22/2017 at 12:21 PM, Liahona said: I'll agree with you to a point...I guess it's better to show the movement...I just don't see the difference as stark as judges try to portray it in their numbers with the top corps...This difference is especially apparent in years when a certain corps comes out hot out of the gate... In terms of progression I could close my eyes and predict when corps will break 80 or 90 for example...may be a different corps but the timing is almost certain...I guess that's why I see it as being more of an artificial movement... you have been able to do that for forever when it comes to guessing when scores will hit new marks 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdValvesAreForWimps Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 (edited) I have ONE rules change: Keep the Bb/F horns, cap the number of participants to 150, poop-can the amplification, ban vocals, and reset the composition of the judging panels to 1981 standards because that’s the year the most fans showed up ever. You want those stands filled again? Edited December 26, 2017 by ThirdValvesAreForWimps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdValvesAreForWimps Posted December 26, 2017 Share Posted December 26, 2017 On 12/22/2017 at 11:58 AM, glory said: The trend I most want to see changed is the one where judges don't differentiate when the bulk of the brass line only plays half and whole notes on the move. Any remotely challenging passages are stationary. Cavies and SCV were among those benefitting from this largesse last summer. Of course, the amplified brass choir was another multiplier for SCV. How do we level this playing field? HH Ban amplification..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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