Jeff Ream Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 4 hours ago, cixelsyd said: I think you have claimed otherwise... every time you say "trend". Subjective judging of art involves opinions. Note that "opinions" is plural. There is no way to force subjective judging of art to have only one "correct" opinion. The idea that for any given caption, we can take ten different judges and the thousands of things they assess in a performance/design, and boil them all down to obey a uniform "trend", is a process that denies and defies subjectivity. Any additional steps taken to investigate, impeach, or remove judges based on deviation from "the trend" take us much further down that rabbit hole. do you follow trends in anything? Business? Sports? so why should drum corps be immune from following trends with judging? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: ... I know a few years ago USBands had someone who was alumni ( i forget his name....i know i liked the guys playing with his band...) and had never really judged. let's just say results and happiness was very mixed So he was not positioning, spacing, scoring, rating, ranking, giving feedback, etc lock stepping to established norms, trends, tolerences, of those trained in combining likemindness with peer expectations. And that was considered out of whack. And the marching arts claim they really do 'not' want clones judging. Hmmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: do you follow trends in anything? Business? Sports? so why should drum corps be immune from following trends with judging? Unsure what you meant by "follow". If you meant observe and identify trends, then of course there are times when I do that. If you meant conform to trends, like a DCI judge - no, generally I do not merely "follow trends" in that sense. Your post reminds me of the adage, "past performance is no guarantee of future results". That is so vitally important to note in business, and it proves true in sports too. But maybe not in the marching arts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: do you fly in DCI judges to judge DCA and have them apply DCI tolerances? Sure if you want to be shot. Whoever said otherwise? Oh I know, you're all about honesty ( until called out). and IMO, i have a hunch it was far less than the scores as to why you weren't asked back As to your hunch, the sponsor is still my friend and the host still wants me to write for his band, and they both still maintain the reason I provided is true. So either they are lying through their teeth making them horrible people and your hunch is correct. Or your hunch is out to lunch. But on to the rest of your posting... Checking tolerances on a camshaft with a micrometer in a machine shop is precise. Tolerances using observable interpritation of artistic expression is fuzzy logic. Sort of like making a determination as to when an apple becomes an apple core as you are consuming it? You can say that the tolerences are wider in DCA than DCI. And you can say trained eyes and ears can determine different tolerance levels to that specific of a level. But in truth artistic expression is not measurable except by observed interpritation; which is always flawed in that there is no way at all to accuratly determine when the line is crossed. That should have been learned back in the day with this unanswerable question: When does a tick actually materialize? Your (if you want to be shot) statement only reinforces that judging clones are desirable. Oh, and I could not care less what you think about my honesty. But think if this: in two posts I have commeded you, your education, your experience, and stated it has merit and value. I have disagreed with your opinions, but never made personal shots. Many posts you typed to me, including taking a whack at my honesty in this post, were personal sarcastic snipes. Just sayin. Edited June 12, 2019 by Stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Stu said: So he was not positioning, spacing, scoring, rating, ranking, giving feedback, etc lock stepping to established norms, trends, tolerences, of those trained in combining likemindness with peer expectations. And that was considered out of whack. And the marching arts claim they really do 'not' want clones judging. Hmmmmmm no he was brought in with no formal training and told to decide a championship. genius approach eh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, cixelsyd said: Unsure what you meant by "follow". If you meant observe and identify trends, then of course there are times when I do that. If you meant conform to trends, like a DCI judge - no, generally I do not merely "follow trends" in that sense. Your post reminds me of the adage, "past performance is no guarantee of future results". That is so vitally important to note in business, and it proves true in sports too. But maybe not in the marching arts... yes and thats what the caption heads do...the observe and identify trends. there's no conforming in DCI, despite how much you and others want to believe. There is no collective hive mindset cast upon the judges to be sure all is in line with how the master lord of all wants it. but why let facts ruin a good tinfoil hat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waliman4444 Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: love to have him come in and give feedback, but not scores unless he went through the training. I know a few years ago USBands had someone who was alumni ( i forget his name....i know i liked the guys playing with his band...) and had never really judged. let's just say results and happiness was very mixed I agree...only as a consultant 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Ream Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 16 minutes ago, Stu said: As to your hunch, the sponsor is still my friend and the host still wants me to write for his band, and they both still maintain the reason I provided is true. So either they are lying through their teeth making them horrible people and your hunch is correct. Or your hunch is out to lunch. But on to the rest of your posting... Checking tolerances on a camshaft with a micrometer in a machine shop is precise. Tolerances using observable interpritation of artistic expression is fuzzy logic. Sort of like making a determination as to when an apple becomes an apple core as you are consuming it? You can say that the tolerences are wider in DCA than DCI. And you can say trained eyes and ears can determine different tolerance levels to that specific of a level. But in truth artistic expression is not measurable except by observed interpritation; which is always flawed in that there is no way at all to accuratly determine when the line is crossed. That should have been learned back in the day with this unanswerable question: When does a tick actually materialize? Your (if you want to be shot) statement only reinforces that judging clones are desirable. Oh, and I could not care less what you think about my honesty. But think if this: in two posts I have commeded you, your education, your experience, and stated it has merit and value. I have disagreed with your opinions, but never made personal shots. Many posts you typed to me, including taking a whack at my honesty in this post, were personal sarcastic snipes. Just sayin. good to hear! hunches can be wrong! Obviously something you did, regardless of who it irritated caused an issue. So therefore, you're not part of the solution.the tolerance is looser in DCA. They rehearse weekends only, not all day every day like DCI. it's been an issue with DCI only folks judging DCA corps for eons. clones are not desirable. But there is NO training that mandates they all act like a hive or a bunch of bots. You can claim otherwise, but I know people that have been through the training, and i'm hear to tell you, you're blowing hot air like usual Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weaklefthand4ever Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jeff Ream said: do you follow trends in anything? Business? Sports? so why should drum corps be immune from following trends with judging? It hasn't ever been immune. Didn't percussion judging have to change when we transitioned from East Coast to West Coast style? The sound is completely different through the instrument. I remember Joe Wormsworth doing a clinic way back in the early or mid-80's and trying to teach us all this "crazy east coast stuff" with super high moeller technique. When the trends change, the judging community would HAVE to adjust to that. So yeah, it's subjective from judge to judge to a point. I'll give that one to Stu and some of the others. BUT.....it's subjective within a certain pre-determined set of criteria. If you were to bring in someone who had little to no experience with that criteria, then you open up the floodgates and the possibility of major swings occurring without any true justification become possible. I don't want #random24thplacecorps from last year suddenly at the top of the heap because they're playing "Hans Zimmers Greatest Hits" and some yahoo judging just can't enough of "The Hans." This argument about what is and isn't subjective is idiotic. Like almost all things in performance based judging, trends drive scoring. As the performers change and trends shift, so does the judging. I've known a LOT of DCI judges....even ran over one once who managed to miss an entire tenor line heading towards him. So far, I have yet to see a single secret handshake, collective tattoo or strange torchlight meeting with goat skulls and black cloaks among the judging community. We all have our ideas, opinions and hang up's. Please..let the horse stay down. It's deader than Elvis. EDIT: Please note that the dead horse above is not representative of any single or specific poster(s.) No cartoon horses were harmed in the drawing of this meme. Edited June 12, 2019 by Weaklefthand4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cixelsyd Posted June 12, 2019 Share Posted June 12, 2019 23 minutes ago, Jeff Ream said: yes and thats what the caption heads do...the observe and identify trends. there's no conforming in DCI, despite how much you and others want to believe. There is no collective hive mindset cast upon the judges to be sure all is in line with how the master lord of all wants it. but why let facts ruin a good tinfoil hat? And why would they have to observe and identify "trends", if not to... oh, never mind. I agree with you. There is no conforming in DCI. (And non-conforming is strictly prohibited.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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