What would you think if...

[cfirwin3]

1 minute ago, Ghost said:

1.  I might be simplifying  this but, once a corps is playing, is a DM needed to conduct the whole piece?  Yes there is some music with changes, but so much has the beat already set.

2.  One of the currently placed 7-12 corps has 5 DM's.   I feel so bad for the three on the back side directing no one most of the time they are there.

1. Yes, they are needed at all times.  Drumcorps performance requires constant visual sync because there is no reliable ensemble sound on the field.  The show lives and dies by the competency of the drum major.  The DM actually provides very little (actually none) in the way of musical gesturing, but they maintain the pulse at all times and the referencing never breaks.  There are even some circumstances where the visual gets cut off and a member (even a horn player) will be designated to "dut" for their nearest neighbors that are out of view of the DM (due to bell facing restrictions, etc.).  There are some rules to this however, as to if the DM is THE influence or if they are being influenced (perhaps by the feet of the center snare, on occasions).  Likewise, the front ensemble or sidelined instruments may be required to listen back rather than watch at certain moments to get the sound travel to line up properly.  DMs are absolutely indispensable in field shows.

2. See point one.  That's why they are charged with beating time.  They are needed by someone at some point.

[Glenn426]

13 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

1. It has nothing to do with the corps that I marched.  You don't really have to take my word for it, because I think that this thread was started with a different drumcorps in mind... and I am eager to jump to THEIR defense... mostly because symphony orchestras and wind bands have been employing these techniques for outdoor venues for decades, because it makes sense.  I promise you that if you catch the Boston Symphony at the shell on the Charles River... you are going to hear an audio engineered performance.

2. The financial disparity issue is not furthered by the addition or subtraction of any sort of equipment.  More funds will be used to buy more stuff in the interest of creativity no matter what is or is not allowed.  The argument is a red herring (that is mostly irrelevant these days with most world class corps using electronics on a fairly comparable level).

3a. A drum major is a metronome.  A drum major is the BEST metronome.  Using a click is really settling for inadequacy when the drum major isn't in view... or when you would otherwise need 5 drum majors to get the job done.

3b. Autotune... don't make me laugh.  THIS is the assertion of the thread, that electronics make it all easier.  And that is what I was getting at with my post.  It's a nonsense assertion because it has no example to base it on.  You can't take a hornline playing at full dynamic, capture, filter, and amplify in a way that actually deceives the audience.  The ensemble is right there to be heard (and they are heard)... not in some glass partition.

3c. Competition and rules is really what this comes down to.  People are obsessed with regulation when points are involved.  But the laughable thing is that we are talking about techniques that are allowed as if they aren't.  And when you examine the reasons why they are allowed, then you quickly understand that they are not allowed for the benefit of technical point value, but rather for the benefit music production.

Anybody who has done this knows that balance, blend and tuning in drumcorps is ENTIRELY a mechanical enterprise.  You don't "listen" for balance and blend.  You don't adjust to your neighbors.  You don't tune to your 'trio'... or to the tuba section.  You repeat the phrase hundreds of times in a controlled environment with constant critique.  You put your tuning slides at the notch markings that you are told.  You learn to play in the 'center' of the horn.  You develop the kind of muscle memory that would... let's say you dropped dead in the middle of the show... your dead corpse would finish the show before it gave in to rigor mortis, or turned to jelly.  These things are conditioned, not negotiated.

Electronics change none of that.  You can't make something that is entirely mechanical and make it more mechanical.  There is an assumption that brass sections sound better by using electronics... and that is nonsense.  Brass sections sound better by being better.  They sound better by having people that are picky making the decisions.  They sound better by having students that are able and willing to do what picky people tell them to do... and getting it done yesterday.

Ironically, electronics (amplification specifically) as it is being used actually puts a whole lot more weight on the performer.  Now that soloists are amplified, they are expected to be musical.  They are expected to convey interpretation.  They are depending on far less mechanical conditioning and far more on playing the horn with nuance that is amplified for everyone to hear.  It's gotten to the point where FLO-watching home judges are quickly saying things like "ooo, that was a rough run" because they heard the sleight crunching sound of attack in the soloist.

Amplification doesn't make a corps sound better... it helps to show off just how good (or rough) they are.

Think about it.  When people have to do public speaking... and they approach the microphone... do they feel better or worse about their situation?

 

I stand by my analogy 100%

AS a brass player I know that playing a fast passage at mp and using your air and support for Sound quality as opposed to Projection and volume make yourself sound much better. But the problem was that while sounded better no one could hear it, So it wasn't as effective.. The use of Electronics is in fact making the hornline sound better because the hornline can focus on sounding good without having to worry about projecting which would normally sacrifice the sound quality...

To a Music Ensemble judge you want good ensemble cohesion and solid paying throughout your program, It is a major advantage for a hornline to only have to worry about Sound quality and the dynamics can be handled at the sound board..

Bluecoats are subtle in their use of the electronics, the hornline is certainly pumping out some solid notes, anyone who has seen them warmup can attest to it, but on the field Bluecoats are mixing the live sound so that when it reaches the music judges in the box it is just how the Staff wants it.. 

I was at an ensemble rehearsal this weekend and I heard "Mellophones dont worry about your volumes in this phrase you have a microphone right in front of you that handles the volume, Worry about your tone and expression towards the end of the phrase"

Mics are making it easier for Hornlines to play with better sounds..

[cfirwin3]

2 minutes ago, Eleran said:

Again, symphony orchestras playing outside are doing so to an entirely different audience, and realize that their strings won't be heard over the wind and the sirens by audience members 100 yards away.  Please tell me which of the Berlin, Vienna, New York or Chicago symphonies use microphones in their natural setting - the concert hall?

Because  you know what?   Orchestras don't have 24-person trumpet sections.

Football fields are not natural settings for brass ensembles of any size.  Especially ones with soloists.

Especially ones with world class (not drumcorps terminology) ability.

I recently saw Carolina Crown.  And my wife (who is a music educator like myself, and a conservatory trumpet player) said, after the duet section on Gabriel's Oboe "That was played perfectly".

She knew that it was played perfectly (and by the way... it was) because they were being amplified for us to hear them play it perfectly like great brass players are supposed to play on brass instruments... not forced and idiomatic to a bygone era (much less than perfect).

So all of those fine musical organizations that you listed will use amplification in similar circumstances for exactly the same reasons.

Name one circumstance where amplifying an instrument (live) resulted in hiding the player's faults and improved the perception of their ability.

[cfirwin3]

2 minutes ago, Glenn426 said:

AS a brass player I know that playing a fast passage at mp and using your air and support for Sound quality as opposed to Projection and volume make yourself sound much better. But the problem was that while sounded better no one could hear it, So it wasn't as effective.. The use of Electronics is in fact making the hornline sound better because the hornline can focus on sounding good without having to worry about projecting which would normally sacrifice the sound quality...

To a Music Ensemble judge you want good ensemble cohesion and solid paying throughout your program, It is a major advantage for a hornline to only have to worry about Sound quality and the dynamics can be handled at the sound board..

Bluecoats are subtle in their use of the electronics, the hornline is certainly pumping out some solid notes, anyone who has seen them warmup can attest to it, but on the field Bluecoats are mixing the live sound so that when it reaches the music judges in the box it is just how the Staff wants it.. 

I was at an ensemble rehearsal this weekend and I heard "Mellophones dont worry about your volumes in this phrase you have a microphone right in front of you that handles the volume, Worry about your tone and expression towards the end of the phrase"

Mics are making it easier for Hornlines to play with better sounds..

I'm glad that you agree with me completely. 😉

If you distill this down, you get the following:

Amplification allows good players to sound their best while not requiring them to play badly in order to be heard.

I wonder what amplification does for poor players?

[Precious Roy]

5 minutes ago, Glenn426 said:

...but on the field Bluecoats are mixing the live sound so that when it reaches the music judges in the box it is just how the Staff wants it.. 

How DARE they!

[Eleran]

4 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

Football fields are not natural settings for brass ensembles of any size.  Especially ones with soloists

That's simply not true at all.  Trumpets (bugles) were originally outdoor instruments, for crying outloud!

Giving an ensemble 76+ brass was the answer to having them play outside on a football field.   With all that you are advocating, there is no need for more than 1 brass player per part.  I guess the other 60 spots can go to colorguard and dancers then, and just let the 16 or so brass players sit on the sideline with microphones.

[Incognito365]

7 minutes ago, cfirwin3 said:

Football fields are not natural settings for brass ensembles of any size.  Especially ones with soloists.

Especially ones with world class (not drumcorps terminology) ability.

I recently saw Carolina Crown.  And my wife (who is a music educator like myself, and a conservatory trumpet player) said, after the duet section on Gabriel's Oboe "That was played perfectly".

She knew that it was played perfectly (and by the way... it was) because they were being amplified for us to hear them play it perfectly like great brass players are supposed to play on brass instruments... not forced and idiomatic to a bygone era (much less than perfect).

So all of those fine musical organizations that you listed will use amplification in similar circumstances for exactly the same reasons.

Name one circumstance where amplifying an instrument (live) resulted in hiding the player's faults and improved the perception of their ability.

Lets not liken amplifying soloists to amplifying members the entire show. 

[cfirwin3]

Just now, Incognito365 said:

Lets not liken amplifying soloists to amplifying members the entire show. 

I will because it is true.  In all aspects.

What does amplifying a poor performance do for the performance?

[Incognito365]

Just now, cfirwin3 said:

I will because it is true.  In all aspects.

What does amplifying a poor performance do for the performance?

Then they shouldn't have let that "poor" player into the corps. Sorry. It's not the same no matter how you twist it. 

[cfirwin3]

1 minute ago, Eleran said:

That's simply not true at all.  Trumpets (bugles) were originally outdoor instruments, for crying outloud!

Giving an ensemble 76+ brass was the answer to having them play outside on a football field.   With all that you are advocating, there is no need for more than 1 brass player per part.  I guess the other 60 spots can go to colorguard and dancers then, and just let the 16 or so brass players sit on the sideline with microphones.

Well... single bugles were made for... "crying outloud".

But we are talking about ensembles as I recall, which is the word that I used.  And last time I checked, football fields were made for football.