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What would you think if...

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4 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

Or they are standing on the field behind the stacks. Spent much time in that position at LOS? You can hear the horns just fine from that position. 

You suspend logic.  Have you actually seen where they stand?  I have.  And there's a HUGE concrete wall reflecting all that Goo right to the back of the judge's head.  And, God forbid, he wants to move from side 1 to side 2 because he's not getting there "behind the stacks".

And what is the argument when speakers are actually ON the field blaring at the sidelines?  Does the MA judge have super-human hearing that can block that out and only judge the acoustics?

Come on now, I know you know that I speak truth to this.

 

Edited by garfield
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45 minutes ago, ShortAndFast said:

The brass judge is on the field behind the speakers. So I assume it's pretty straightforward to distinguish between "stuff I hear in front of me coming from the players on the field" and "stuff I hear behind me coming from the speakers".

And again I'll ask.  What does the MA judge do when the speakers are ON the field blaring at the sidelines?

And worse, what if only SOME parts of the show are blared through speakers on the field and others are on the sidelines?

The MA judge is able to "block out" the amped parts and only listen to the air coming out of the horns?

 

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3 minutes ago, garfield said:

You suspend logic.  Have you actually seen where they stand?  I have.  And there's a HUGE concrete wall reflecting all that Goo right to the back of the judge's head.  And, God forbid, he wants to move from side 1 to side 2 because he's not getting there "behind the stacks".

And what is the argument when speakers are actually ON the field blaring at the sidelines?  Does the MA judge have super-human hearing that can block that out and only judge the acoustics?

Come on now, I know you know that I speak truth to this.

 

Yes I've seen where they stand, and I've stood in the same place on multiple occasions, as well in similar positions in other domes and similar venues. 

You can hear the horns just fine. 

 

Edited by MarimbaManiac

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1 minute ago, garfield said:

And again I'll ask.  What does the MA judge do when the speakers are ON the field blaring at the sidelines?

And worse, what if only SOME parts of the show are blared through speakers on the field and others are on the sidelines?

The MA judge is able to "block out" the amped parts and only listen to the air coming out of the horns?

 

We're talking about the brass field judge, not MA (which, if I recall is in the box, unless that's changed). 

The MA judge would be also concerned with blend and ensemble cohesion, so they would listen to the whole package and blend accordingly. As someone who has listened to MANY tapes from music judges, they WILL call you out and dock you if, for instance, your front ensemble is too loud and overbearing. Just like they would call out corps before A&E if the opposite was true. "Wow, it looks like the pit is working really hard down there, unfortunately I can't hear much of it" <---Actual judge commentary pre A&E that I've experienced.

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8 minutes ago, garfield said:

And again I'll ask.  What does the MA judge do when the speakers are ON the field blaring at the sidelines?

And worse, what if only SOME parts of the show are blared through speakers on the field and others are on the sidelines?

The MA judge is able to "block out" the amped parts and only listen to the air coming out of the horns?

 

In the interview, Wayne Dillon said that the brass judge is supposed to judge the acoustic brass performance. S/he is appropriately placed to do so.

MA, GE are supposed to judge the amplified performance as far as I know.

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1 hour ago, Eleran said:

And not to belabor the point, but I did a little more looking at the SF Soundbox venue which you offer up as evidence of symphonies going electronic.  Five years into this experiment, and the entire annual 2018-2019 season of this wonderful electronic forefront of music consisted of a grand total of 6 nights.   With a 500 capacity venue, that's 3,000 audience members for the entire year, whereas Davies Hall packs in just under 3,000 each performance, and plays roughly 150 times a year.   450,000 audience members a year in one city may not be Taylor Swift territory by a long shot, but please don't tell me that a 3,000/year electronics experiment is heralding the demise of a 450,000/year acoustic institution.

Edit:  PS - they don't even allow audience members under 21 because serving alcohol is apparently as important as the art.

It's just one example of an instrumental venue/organization that's using technology to enhance their space. And again, because you seem to be conflating the "electronic enhancement of acoustic music" with "electronic music." We're not even talking about electroacoustic or electronic music, which is a whole other can of worms. 

You're still grasping at straws to ignore what people who have direct experience with this are telling you, because you're convinced that we're somehow trying to pull the wool over your eyes about the prevalence of technology in the instrumental medium. 

Get a grip man, you seem a bit unhinged. 

Edited by MarimbaManiac

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8 minutes ago, MarimbaManiac said:

We're talking about the brass field judge, not MA (which, if I recall is in the box, unless that's changed). 

The MA judge would be also concerned with blend and ensemble cohesion, so they would listen to the whole package and blend accordingly. As someone who has listened to MANY tapes from music judges, they WILL call you out and dock you if, for instance, your front ensemble is too loud and overbearing. Just like they would call out corps before A&E if the opposite was true. "Wow, it looks like the pit is working really hard down there, unfortunately I can't hear much of it" <---Actual judge commentary pre A&E that I've experienced.

Oooohhhh, OK then!  My friend Jeff is judging MA tomorrow night and I thought I recall him saying he'd be on the field.  I may have that wrong.

I'm not suggesting one can't hear the horns.  I'm suggesting that one can't separate out the Goo from 4.000 watts of amps no matter where one is standing.

Nearly no one else in The Can would make a contention such as yours that the analog performance can be judged while NOT hearing the amped signals.

Unless, of course, such judge is wearing the same headphones as the person standing at the mixing board.

 

Edited by garfield

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3 minutes ago, ShortAndFast said:

In the interview, Wayne Dillon said that the brass judge is supposed to judge the acoustic brass performance. S/he is appropriately placed to do so.

MA, GE are supposed to judge the amplified performance as far as I know.

Yes, I believe he was referring to the brass judge.

I have the name wrong but not the point.

Edited by garfield

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1 minute ago, MarimbaManiac said:

You're still grasping at straws to ignore what people who have direct experience with this are telling you, because you're convinced that we're somehow trying to pull the wool over your eyes about the prevalence of technology in the instrumental medium. 

Get a grip man, you seem a bit unhinged. 

You keep saying "instrumental medium" - please define exactly what non-electronic instruments to which you refer, if you are ruling out orchestras, opera companies, ballet companies, british-style brass bands, etc.   I've been waiting for 90 pages for you to actually back up that argument with facts, but you seem unable or unwilling to do so.

And as for your having direct experience, you've already admitted that you have NONE, even as an audience member, when it comes to those ensembles I named.  You call me unhinged, because you can't put together an argument better than a pompous  "I know best, so all you old people should just die off and leave the planet to me."     You call everyone else's statements biased, when you are the one with a personal career interest in the sound engineered world.   

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Just now, garfield said:

Oooohhhh, OK then!  My friend Jeff is judging MA tomorrow night and I thought I recall him saying he'd be on the field.  I may have that wrong.

I'm not suggesting one can't hear the horns.  I'm suggesting that one can't separate out the Goo from 4.000 watts of amps not matter where one is standing.

Nearly no one else in The Can would make a contention such as yours that the analog performance can be judged while NOT hearing the amped signals.

Unless, of course, such judge is wearing the same headphones as the person standing at the mixing board.

 

Several things...

Higher frequencies tend to be directional, while lower frequencies tend to spread out evenly in all directions. 

Your ears are able to filter out sounds that are coming from behind you, and focus on the sounds directly in front oh you (hence why they're shaped the way they are). 

Sounds coming from behind you, especially lower frequencies, need to be MUCH louder than what's in front of you in order to perceive them as equal (ask anyone who has tried to balance a 5.1 or 7.1 system in a performance space. 

 

So yes, brass judges who are standing behind speakers (which are directional and pointing away from the judge), and facing the horns (which are directional and pointing at the judge), are easily able to distinguish the horns from what's coming from the speakers. This is especially true when you consider the Fletcher-Munson curve, which shows that the ear perceives higher frequencies (between the 2000-5000hz range) to be louder than lower frequencies, even when each are equal in intensity. So a tone at 100hz at 40db will sound significantly softer than a tone at 2000hz also at 40db...especially when considering directionality. 

So yes, they can hear the horns. 

It's science. 

 

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