gunther Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Going back to the creation of the DCA, a major reason was because of horrible and unqualified judging which mostly happened to everyone who competed in Pennsylvania, even in-state corps. This became intolerable in Scranton '63 when a major corps was so upset with the judging that they surrounded the judges and were ready to tear them apart following a very long and threatening judges meeting that normally would have only lasted about 30 minutes. The judges were rescued by Hawthorne and escorted to their cars after this ferocious meeting that went on until 2AM. Hawthorne was purposely kept out of the DCA based on uninformed sources with partial information. The situation festered because the business managers of Hawthorne & the Skyliners had a deep personal hatred for each other. Corps were kept out for 2 years until DCA leadership realized that sponsors of the biggest contests - biggest prize money, largest crowds - rejected being a DCA show. The independent corps enjoyed the benefits and this poor decision by DCA kept the organization in financial hardship that lasted beyond '66 and prevented opening up to other corps. Having smaller DCA shows also hurt member corps because of much smaller prize money. In those days, big shows could have first prize money as high as $7,500. The typical show often maxed at $2,000. Member corps were not happy. The opening of DCA to Hawthorne, Sunrisers, Syracuse, Interstatesmen & Marksmen, etc. brought with them the big sponsors/crowds. DCA did not share in contest receipts but only continued to get their judging fees regardless. The financial structure was deeply flawed. DCA's creation kept the best corps from competing together. In its intention to harm Hawthorne, the DCA did the most harm to the organization and especially the member corps. Show creativity suffered, fans got less than they could get pre-DCA and the independent corps made some very good money and strengthened their treasuries. From the beginning, the founding corps focused on getting away from unqualified and/or biased judging. They naturally took a direct hand in judge approval or protests. This soon emerged as DCA becoming a judging association. DCA's problem with NE Circuit centered on not supplying judges (read control). They made their money from judging fees. Those fees went mostly to the judges and left little to form or grow a treasury. It was very short-sighted. As for judging make-up, it was not true that 60% were ex-Cabs. None of the Pennsylvania or New York State judges were ex-Cabs. There was a good representation of ex-Skyliners in those panels, especially in NY State. In actual practice, both Hawthorne & Sky dreaded having ex members judge them. Those judges felt that they had to prove their fairness.They actually went overboard and were overly harsh and subjective on their former corps. Some of these judges were actually protested and removed from rosters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlips Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Gunther speaks with the voice of someone who must have been within the inner circle of movers and shakers at the time (and likely remains so). As for that infamous '63 Scranton show, the top 3, Reading, Skyliners and Cabs were each separated by a tenth. That was a bitter pill for some, and shows why the tick system was inherently flawed. A field judge might be on the "clean" baritone side while 17 egregious errors occurred over there amongst the sopranos, each quite visible and/or audible in the stands, (particularly to the hyper-critical opposing staffs), while the cat with the clip board and sharpened No. 2 missed them all. Multiply this by three captions and there's a recipe for a riot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Haring Posted June 20, 2022 Share Posted June 20, 2022 The Interstatesmen were one of the original seven DCA corps. Buccaneers, Hurricanes, Skyliners, Yankee Rebels, Pittsburgh Rockets, and Archer-Epler Musketeers were the others. The Bucs, Hurcs, and Sky have had their share of ups and downs (OK... not many "downs" for the Bucs since 2005...LOL)... but it's nice to see all three still on the scene. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajlisko Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) Funny footnote to the Scranton show as told to me by Pepe ... NY and Hawthorne had been trading wins since the Barmun in 63, so they made a $500 wager at Scranton - the final time they would meet ... they were chiding each other all day, with each confident they had won that night ... then Reading is announced the winner and all hell breaks loose ... Sky claimed they should get the $500 for their 2nd place finish to the Cabs 3rd while Hawthorne said: no win ... no $$$ ... pretty funny when Pepe animated the story ... Edited June 21, 2022 by ajlisko 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlips Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 You mean, people used to BET on drum corps shows? For shame. 🙂 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Betting? You bet your sweet ###!! There were direct bets between Hawthorne & Sky on several other contests. Most times, the bet was much more than what was listed here. Also, the '63 Scranton show was not the final meeting of these 2 corps. That Scranton contest formed the basis for long-standing animosity against Pennsylvania judging games. More than one corps decided to stay out of PA for years. The outrageous judging here particularly led quickly to a meeting led by Sky, Archie & Hurricanes to force reform. The idea was overdue but it came under manipulation by the wrong people and quickly became a civil war. Judging overall came under much criticism and heated judges meetings, sometimes with violence. The Scranton contest continued to be the center of the same problems for years and was not a welcome place to compete for some corps. The very next day was the Dream, won by Hawthorne. Then, the Legion Nationals in Miami saw another hefty bet which Sky tried to back out of. It was declared a true bet after a serious study of the events and ethics by a priest from one of the Jersey Jr corps. On that occasion, the bet was on who would beat the other. Hawthorne won that also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF-LowBari Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Ahh Scranton… as one of my corps mates put it “if they ever want to give Pennsylvania an enema, Scranton is where they would put the hose..” 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlips Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 "...a priest from one of the Jersey Jr corps." If it's the one I'm thinking of, he had a reputation for pulling his corps out of shows they might lose. A real paragon of ethics, that padre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Could very well be the same guy. He who would never become bishop or saint. Imagine the level of mistrust on all sides! The security and selection of trusted stakeholders took as much debate as judging panel selection. This was something that could have been in "Guys & Dolls". It reveals an insight into the biggest corps and atmosphere of the time. It also continued in its own way in later years and across the activity.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironlips Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 "This was something that could have been in "Guys & Dolls"." For sure, early DCA was populated by many characters who would best be described as "Runyonesque". The current edition still features some characters who qualify, as you probably know. That's why DCA will continue in one form or another, even if they have to take the game underground to some parking garage in Manhattan, with Big Jule and Nathan Detroit wearing sombreros and shakos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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